[SL/Chop] 2H Tree 2nd and 3rd Tactics

[dansari]

Perma enrage will never be viable in its current state, no matter the gear.
Either amp up the damage significantly or reduce defensive drawbacks.
Or just completly rework the middle tree.

Holds true for slayer and for choppa.

The proposal isn't about Power Through/Wot Rules.

People were arguing about it, so I thought I chime in, my apologies.

Fair point

[Foomy44]

I really like proposal 1, partly because middle tree needs the love and this would bring some good group synergy, but also because it helps balance out the factions by giving destro the option to get what SWs and anyone around them on order have been getting for some time now (ini debuff would stack with BO ini steal right?)

Proposal 2 not so much, I think 2-3 back back2back finishers at +75% damage is pretty damn good even if a little luck is required. If you wanted to improve it but keep the same spirit of RNG I would try something like adding a buff that procs when it doesn't go off so that the next exhaustive blow has a +50% chance to return you to yellow (so if it doesn't work the first time, the 2nd time you use an exhausting blow the chance is 100% and it will be guaranteed to return you to yellow). That way you can still get lucky streaks, but at worst every other exhausting blow will proc it. Maybe make the buff a stacking +25% chance each time the tactic misses if %50 is too high.

[dansari]

I really like proposal 1, partly because middle tree needs the love and this would bring some good group synergy, but also because it helps balance out the factions by giving destro the option to get what SWs and anyone around them on order have been getting for some time now (ini debuff would stack with BO ini steal right?)

Proposal 2 not so much, I think 2-3 back back2back finishers at +75% damage is pretty damn good even if a little luck is required. If you wanted to improve it but keep the same spirit of RNG I would try something like adding a buff that procs when it doesn't go off so that the next exhaustive blow has a +50% chance to return you to yellow (so if it doesn't work the first time, the 2nd time you use a finishing blow the chance is 100% and it will be guaranteed to return you to yellow). That way you can still get lucky streaks, but at worst every other exhausting blow will proc it.

It depends. Tactics stacking with abilities is possible for some (not all) in client, but even when possible Torque will still decide to turn on or off. I like your alternative idea for #2 -- would make it more worthwhile to equip.

[nebelwerfer]

I really like proposal 1, partly because middle tree needs the love and this would bring some good group synergy, but also because it helps balance out the factions by giving destro the option to get what SWs and anyone around them on order have been getting for some time now (ini debuff would stack with BO ini steal right?)

Proposal 2 not so much, I think 2-3 back back2back finishers at +75% damage is pretty damn good even if a little luck is required. If you wanted to improve it but keep the same spirit of RNG I would try something like adding a buff that procs when it doesn't go off so that the next exhaustive blow has a +50% chance to return you to yellow (so if it doesn't work the first time, the 2nd time you use an exhausting blow the chance is 100% and it will be guaranteed to return you to yellow). That way you can still get lucky streaks, but at worst every other exhausting blow will proc it. Maybe make the buff a stacking +25% chance each time the tactic misses if %50 is too high.

Sure it's fun when it proccs for 3-4 times in a row, but it's dreadful when it doesn't the next 3-4 times. Also, almost all exhaustive blows have a 10-30 second cooldown which means you will not be able to spam them out every GCD, imo they are efficiently used by building rage and dropping sparingly.

I think reliability is key here because the 2h tree is all about burst, if you're going to kill a target in a limited window of opportunity like a guard punt, double armor debuff or champ challenge you do not want to risk being stuck in 0% bonus damage for 5 seconds while the window closes.

I think the biggest strength of my idea is that it works well with the career mechanic, you want to build up pressure and use a strong finisher, whether this first "rotation" successfully kills a target that is supported by a group or not - having an easier time maintaining and rebuilding that pressure will greatly help this tree.

If my proposal is the best way of doing that, I'm not completely sure, but I really think the reliability is so important that's why people use tactics like power through because it is exactly that, even with it's enormous drawbacks

[TenTonHammer]

I think reliability is key here because the 2h tree is all about burst, if you're going to kill a target in a limited window of opportunity like a guard punt, double armor debuff or champ challenge you do not want to risk being stuck in 0% bonus damage for 5 seconds while the window closes.

the problem is that this concept of burst is only really feels applicable really to slayer who has burst with both wounds debuff and deathblow

where as choppa only has burst from the latter and those 2 abilites never felt like they hit sufficently had enough to blow rage over, over all the concept of burst 2h weapons being what they excel with vs DW dosnt really exist since DW has greater aa, espically with AA haste tactic and increased chance to proc stuff and so the damage gap between the weapon types is really not all that great

[nebelwerfer]

I think reliability is key here because the 2h tree is all about burst, if you're going to kill a target in a limited window of opportunity like a guard punt, double armor debuff or champ challenge you do not want to risk being stuck in 0% bonus damage for 5 seconds while the window closes.

the problem is that this concept of burst is only really feels applicable really to slayer who has burst with both wounds debuff and deathblow

where as choppa only has burst from the latter and those 2 abilites never felt like they hit sufficently had enough to blow rage over, over all the concept of burst 2h weapons being what they excel with vs DW dosnt really exist since DW has greater aa, espically with AA haste tactic and increased chance to proc stuff and so the damage gap between the weapon types is really not all that great

I think choppa would be much better off with this tactic, I can imagine No more Helpin' (outgoing healdebuff), Tired already (CD increaser) and Keep on Choppin' (regain 100 AP) would maybe not deal a lot of burst but certaintly benefit from this change in utility and keeping pressure up, so they're worth building rage for and using. THEN you're free to use weaklin killa' for 75% more damage, instead of wasting your burst potential on it in red.

I agree about the damage from DW vs 2h is not all that, but keep in mind with proposal #1 your chance to crit would not only be increased for abilities but also auto attacks, which does make a difference.

[Wdova]

I think reliability is key here because the 2h tree is all about burst, if you're going to kill a target in a limited window of opportunity like a guard punt, double armor debuff or champ challenge you do not want to risk being stuck in 0% bonus damage for 5 seconds while the window closes.

the problem is that this concept of burst is only really feels applicable really to slayer who has burst with both wounds debuff and deathblow

where as choppa only has burst from the latter and those 2 abilites never felt like they hit sufficently had enough to blow rage over, over all the concept of burst 2h weapons being what they excel with vs DW dosnt really exist since DW has greater aa, espically with AA haste tactic and increased chance to proc stuff and so the damage gap between the weapon types is really not all that great

I think choppa would be much better off with this tactic, I can imagine No more Helpin' (outgoing healdebuff), Tired already (CD increaser) and Keep on Choppin' (regain 100 AP) would maybe not deal a lot of burst but certaintly benefit from this change in utility and keeping pressure up, so they're worth building rage for and using. THEN you're free to use weaklin killa' for 75% more damage, instead of wasting your burst potential on it in red.

I agree about the damage from DW vs 2h is not all that, but keep in mind with proposal #1 your chance to crit would not only be increased for abilities but also auto attacks, which does make a difference.

At the moment withou power thru and woot rules every time you use exhaustive attack your dmg bonus fall to 0% for five seconds. If You are a slayer and You use 50%aa tactic that also drop Your AA haste back to 0%. This is so big dps drop that whole idea of 2h spike dmg just vanish. I still think that those 2 mentioned tactics were implemented especialy for purpose to not lose rage for 2h builds(since other trees dont have much exhaustive attacks). Yes its suicidal,but like I wrote the whole idea go for 2h insted of DW is suicidal by it self. Going 2h as choppa/Slayer means You give up all defensives for maximum possible offensive.
I see Your point that initiate debuff would affect all of your attacks,but i doubt it wouldnt stack with BO/SM stat steal which can also provide init. debuff.
One must ask why 2h tree even exist on so glass cannon mdps class like Slay and Choppa when DW specs are so supperiors. It was mentioned many times that current state of 2h trees is just like "gain a little and sacrifice to much".

Tactic which gives you 120 initiate debuf even for all of Your attacks seems to me like nerf insted of buff(I dont know how much chance to get crit 120 init debuff provide)

[nebelwerfer]

Tactic which gives you 120 initiate debuf even for all of Your attacks seems to me like nerf insted of buff(I dont know how much chance to get crit 120 init debuff provide)

To be honest I'm not completely sure either. It's completely dependant on the opponents initiative levels, but 120 is a significant amount. It does require you to spec all the way up in the tree though, to get the max out of this debuff.

I reckon it should be between 10-20% crit most of the time, which is imo a buff considering it's no longer bound to one tree and will affect all incoming damage on the target regardless of source.

[Foomy44]

Tactic which gives you 120 initiate debuf even for all of Your attacks seems to me like nerf insted of buff(I dont know how much chance to get crit 120 init debuff provide)

Even if it was a slight nerf to your personal dps (which I'm not saying it is, critting auto attacks is pretty nice on a 2h choppa), every single other person on your realm that attacks your target gets the increased crit to so it would be a pretty massive boost to your group utility. Since choppa isn't exactly build for 1v1, and since this build especially isn't their solo roam build, I think overall most would consider this a buff. I would gladly let SW have a small damage boost if it meant their ini debuff only worked for them, getting blown up by a 6man with near 100% crit chance is pretty effective.

[NoRKaLKiLLa]

I personally see no problem with wear Em down as it is now.

2h choppa thrives in that it's bursty via using exhaustive blows while in the yellow for the 75% damage buff, while also being more defensive in that you don't have to sit in the red to dish out your big hits while also providing utility that DW does not.

With no more helping (50% outgoing heal debuff) you have a 100% uptime incoming and outgoing heal debuff, and if WeD procs you can also give them the cool down increaser to completely shut a single healer down. Furthermore, so long as it procs, reducing enemy chance to crit by 100% followed by CD increaser will place a massive damper on an enemies ability to take advantage of a guard kick or healer stagger.

If anything, reckless blow should be tied strictly to 2H and given a "enemy is 15% more likely to be crit" debuff, seeing as now it's completely worthless as other abilities hit harder, and none of them are self debuffs.