dansari wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 3:34 pm
It's fairly common knowledge that dps DoK is stronger than dps WP. Furthermore, dps DoK is a pug killer. You sharing one pug scenario of a dps DoK who participated in 45 kills to order's 2 is not relevant to the discussion for two glaring reasons: it's a pug sc, and it's a DoK.
Regarding the proposal: Exalted Defenses can already negate the negative effect of Divine Fury, at the cost of two tactic slots. I don't follow the logic that this causes an imbalance by investing in a 7pt tactic for the same purpose.
Great way to explain things. "It's fairly common knowledge".
"It's fairly common knowledge that Order classes have more convenient career trees setup than their Destro mirrors"
I'm sharing my observation of a mirror class that is in capacity of dealing a lot of damage and heal more than 70+ zealot in the same PUG party. The proposal here is about boosting heals even more.
I already tried to explain you what is the difference between dual wield and 2h. Dunno if you actually read it, but just as a reminder: DPS of 2h weapon compensates a lot of STR. Not sure if that's what you call "stronger". Could you please clarify Your definition of "stronger"?
Exalted Defenses doesn't negate the effect of Divine Fury, because you have to sacrifice your offensive stats in order to raise your defense, so you could interrupt/dodge/parry often enough to keep +20% healing. So it is at the cost of 2 tactic slots and offensive stats. It works well for healer WP, but defeats the purpose of DF if you set up your WP to make ED work.
Oh... Isn't that what our topicstarter just stated? He can't go into the fry, because he's full offense and can't survive as MDPS.
You're right. I didn't explain it well, and honestly wouldn't do justice to the topic by attempting to explain why dps dok > dps WP, but if you play the game at all you see the rampant amount of dps doks in pug scs (talking upwards of 4 or 5 in some instances) and sometimes a dps WP who gets stomped. So again, dps WP <> dps dok, and this proposal isn't even about dps WP; it's about melee healing WP.
The OP is not full offense. He takes Discpline & Exalted Defenses tactics and Divine Light/Pious Restoration to boost his casted healing abilities and does not take Intimidating Repent. If you read the OP you would see that he has no points to put into Wrath (Wrath is the dps tree). The OP is also tying the tactic to 2h (book WP would not pick this up).
So, finally, I'm growing tired of your irrelevant tangents into how effective dps doks are (the mirrors are not equal; no mirrors are) and how they have the potential to out heal some high RR zealot in one pug scenario. It's a vast discrepancy from page one of this proposal, which features data to support the OP. Please keep posts from here on out relevant to the discussion.
I'm growing tired of you glance-reading and cherry-picking. You made a statement about DoKs, I answered it. And I didn't say anything about effectiveness of DPS DoKs in the post that you quoted. Please, respond to the whole post without attempts to twist its meaning.
What spec do you use as a healer? Right. Salv/Wrath if you want to have AoE detaunt.
What spec would you use as a healer if you can boost your steady healing output by 25%? Right, you'll go Salv/Grace and pick the proposed tactic as it will boost healing output for the price of having only direct detaunt. Oh, isn't it same as all light armor healers have? I think with my medium armor and current situation with disrupt I can just stack lil bit more armor and I'll be totally fine.
Oh, right... Totally forgot... I have a 2h weapon now. But I'm tanky enough as a healer to use smite and I can occasionally smack enemies in a face with my hammer when I feel like it, because I have 2h and it compensates a lots of STR.
Oh... 7 points in Grace tree... Why not to use Divine Assault to deal with these pesky Witch Elves? o_0
Not relevant to the thread's idea, but relevant to oldserpent. Spoilering myself:
Spoiler:
OldSerpenT wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 11:22 am
Healers have "Divine Fury" tactic so you could ask yourself a question: damage or heal?
WP/DoK have additional choice - 2h/dual wield. You can ask yourself a question again: damage or heal?
Also WP/DoK have medium armor and armor bonuses from sets along with boosted (compared to live) disrupt chance. There are also talismans and variety of RR perks, so you could ask yourself another question: live longer or strike harder?
I thought these little choice paths are for reason.
Oh, little note: if you die too fast as MDPS WP/DoK in warband, it's also for reason. You can't deal significant AoE damage and you don't heal. What's the point on wasting guard on you when slayer or BW can kill more and faster? Maybe you should consider different spec for RvR. Spec that you use could be efficient for scenarios or small encounters when you play in assist-party, but not large scale fights.
dansari wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 1:05 pm
This is not really relevant. You're basically saying: your spec isn't good for rvr so why would we change it to make it viable? WP have a lot of damage or healing % modifying tactics that they slot based on situation, and healing via melee is not the same as DPS healing.
The OP is talking about using grace as a melee healer, not a mdps. Your post was off-topic becuase you did not provide much information for or against in regards to what the OP posted. For instance you could have said that removing the negative healing from divine fury reduces the consequences of that choice because of (insert stuff here)
OldSerpenT wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 1:35 pm
This is balance forum, right? I described the idea of balance of WP/DoK, because I see that not everyone is aware of it.
I'm basically saying that careers have different specs for different situations. Some specs are good for 6v6 but they don't work for RvR, and vice versa.
Rydiak wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 1:40 pm
We are aware that the Grace Warrior Priest is suboptimal in RvR. That is why I made a proposal to help it and why it was elevated to discussion. What, specifically, about the proposal do you wish to discuss? Strawmanning that players "aren't aware" that a spec is weak while in the balance forum strikes me as redundant and a waste of time.
Do you have an issue with the percentage number? The proposed effect in general? Please provide some numbers so a discussion can be had.
OldSerpenT wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 2:00 pm
I'm saying that the conception of WP/DoK is about choice - heal or deal damage. With what WP and DoK has at this moment they are more than in capacity to do both. And the way they do it is balanced.
Adding tactics that will negate "Divine Fury" will cause disbalance as it will allow to boost healing along with damage output. Also some WPs/DoKs disregard "Divine Fury" and this allows to have quite interesting results.
Spoiler:
I don't have screenshots of WP doing that, as it's not something I was interested in. Though I've seen similar results.
Yes, it's not some 40/40 DoK. And it's not some 40/40 zealot.
Here you can see that YOU were in fact the first person to bring up data that only applies to the DoK in a discussion about a WP tactic.
Rydiak wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 2:06 pm
So if I am understanding you correctly, Grace is pointless to use in RvR so no sense in buffing it. Also, Grace is balanced at the moment and any buff to it would make it overpowered. Bold move, Cotton.
Linking a picture of a DoK doing well in a scenario, in a balance thread about a Warrior Priest tactic...I'm not sure you quite understand the role of the balance forums. I will not be replying to you further.
Rydiak wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 2:06 pm
So if I am understanding you correctly, Grace is pointless to use in RvR so no sense in buffing it. Also, Grace is balanced at the moment and any buff to it would make it overpowered. Bold move, Cotton.
Linking a picture of a DoK doing well in a scenario, in a balance thread about a Warrior Priest tactic...I'm not sure you quite understand the role of the balance forums. I will not be replying to you further.
Ramasee wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 2:42 pm
Now can you show those kind of screenshots along side the tactics that were in use as well as a combat log parser that breaks down that amount of healing and what ability caused it.
%healing increases do not effect lifetap style heals. I'm willing to bet that most of Hayzz's healing in that scenario came from transfer essence (lifetap), devour essence (life tap), rend soul (life tap), and maybe soul infusion (HoT, mostly on himself). AND the reason the healing got that high is because of those two engineers spamming AoE DoTs. So your transfer essence were constantly healing pretty much everyone in your group. And this tactic would not increase that type of healing.
As for the anyone that disregard divine fury, fairly certain I made a long post describing that benefit.
dansari wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 3:34 pm
It's fairly common knowledge that dps DoK is stronger than dps WP. Furthermore, dps DoK is a pug killer. You sharing one pug scenario of a dps DoK who participated in 45 kills to order's 2 is not relevant to the discussion for two glaring reasons: it's a pug sc, and it's a DoK.
Regarding the proposal: Exalted Defenses can already negate the negative effect of Divine Fury, at the cost of two tactic slots. I don't follow the logic that this causes an imbalance by investing in a 7pt tactic for the same purpose.
Rydiak wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 5:00 pm
I play a LOT of Grace, and incoming chip damage that cannot be life-tapped away (because current combat is too dangerous to engage in) is the bane of the spec. That chip damage builds and builds and you end up in a situation where now you (or your group) cannot even enter melee combat at all because you don't have the hitpoints for it. Now you need to rely on other healers from your group or warband to cover your role until you can be of any use. Alleviating that issue is one of the purposes of the proposal, and Leading the Prayer seemed like the perfect home for anything that helped that situation because the tactic deals with keeping the Warrior Priest alive.
Since Grace cannot effectively counter chip damage outside of melee combat, because they sacrifice so much in their casted heals to survive/be effective in melee, the obvious buff would be to make casted heals not as poor but at the cost of a Greatweapon, a mastery point, and a tactic slot.
The proposal won't make Grace-specced casted heals on the same level as Salvation-specced casted heals, nor should it. It should only provide another avenue for Grace to choose to accomplish the goal of keeping players alive as a healer. Countering the heal effectiveness debuff of Divine Fury/Fanaticism simply does that.
As far as I can tell, you have not replied to this person's points against your "arguments", old serpent.
OldSerpenT wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 8:30 pm
No I can't provide screenshots and combat log parse. I believe you realize the absurdity of that request.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but the proposal is about boosting cast-heals that actually are affected by DF
Great way to explain things. "It's fairly common knowledge".
"It's fairly common knowledge that Order classes have more convenient career trees setup than their Destro mirrors"
I'm sharing my observation of a mirror class that is in capacity of dealing a lot of damage and heal more than 70+ zealot in the same PUG party. The proposal here is about boosting heals even more.
I already tried to explain you what is the difference between dual wield and 2h. Dunno if you actually read it, but just as a reminder: DPS of 2h weapon compensates a lot of STR. Not sure if that's what you call "stronger". Could you please clarify Your definition of "stronger"?
Exalted Defenses doesn't negate the effect of Divine Fury, because you have to sacrifice your offensive stats in order to raise your defense, so you could interrupt/dodge/parry often enough to keep +20% healing. So it is at the cost of 2 tactic slots and offensive stats. It works well for healer WP, but defeats the purpose of DF if you set up your WP to make ED work.
Oh... Isn't that what our topicstarter just stated? He can't go into the fry, because he's full offense and can't survive as MDPS.
The whole big problem of all these discussions is that people want to "fix" something that doesn't please them by drastic change or complete remodeling ability or tactic. It's not balancing. You can't tune guitar with power tools or by putting strings in different order and randomly changing gauge. You slowly tighten or loosen strings. Same thing here.
First off, it really isn't an absurd request to ask for a combat parser log report of how much healing came from casted heals versus lifetap heals when we are talking about a tactic that only increases CASTED heals, not life taps. As I surmised, the DoK their did mostly lifetap oriented healing and if he had this tactic active wouldn't have seen much benefit. Also to prove how easy it is to get this info: https://imgur.com/a/BxtIP6U
I did a scenario real quick on my orvr-specced, deftard tank just to get combat log parse numbers and put them on top of a scenario. SURELY you can recreate the scenario results you posted earlier of only a dok, but make it a WP and then post the same combat log parsing to breakdown which abilities created your healing.
OldSerpenT wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 5:25 am
I'm growing tired of you glance-reading and cherry-picking. You made a statement about DoKs, I answered it. And I didn't say anything about effectiveness of DPS DoKs in the post that you quoted. Please, respond to the whole post without attempts to twist its meaning.
What spec do you use as a healer? Right. Salv/Wrath if you want to have AoE detaunt.
What spec would you use as a healer if you can boost your steady healing output by 25%? Right, you'll go Salv/Grace and pick the proposed tactic as it will boost healing output for the price of having only direct detaunt. Oh, isn't it same as all light armor healers have? I think with my medium armor and current situation with disrupt I can just stack lil bit more armor and I'll be totally fine.
Oh, right... Totally forgot... I have a 2h weapon now. But I'm tanky enough as a healer to use smite and I can occasionally smack enemies in a face with my hammer when I feel like it, because I have 2h and it compensates a lots of STR.
Oh... 7 points in Grace tree... Why not to use Divine Assault to deal with these pesky Witch Elves? o_0
So in the end it is really you that has been glance reading and cherry picking. You made the statement about DoKs, not any of us. We have been responding to the whole thread and all of your posts entirely, linking them together. This is what you are supposed to do in a forum thread until the opponent retracts their point (or stops posting).
You are absolutely correct that most healing WPs go salv/wrath for AoE detaunt. But you are wrong that the ONLY thing they lose by going into grace is the detaunt in order to gain the 25% healing. They also lose 8rf per second because they have to use a 2H. Here's the math :
Some assumptions for math. 600 willpower, its on the high end of what you might have while being near the front line. This puts TotD at 631 healing per cast before modifiers. Pious Restoration is 980 over 9s. Martyr's Blessing is 1252 per cast (total of all 4 ticks). This is assuming a 13pt salv, 7pt grace spec for the book. Counting ED 100% uptime even though it isn't, and fueled fury proccing on icd, which doesn't happen all the time either and saying you hit 5 targets with smite each time for 75 rf generated. Also going to do 30s combat timer
---------------------------------------------
With Book and thus no Tactic as proposed by OP
TotD: 757
PR: 1176
MB: 1502
3x Martyr's Blessing, 3x Pious Restoration, 9x touch of the divine, and 3x smites equals out to 494.9 HPS AoE.
---------------------------------------------
With Tactic proposed by OP and thus using great weapon, all other conditions the same:
With Book and thus no Tactic as proposed by OP
TotD: 947
PR: 1470
MB: 1878
3x pious restoration, 3x martyr's blessing, 8x touch of the divines, 4x smites is a total of 587.3 HPS AoE.
-----------------------
That's with near perfect conditions, constant procs from fueled fury and hitting 5 targets with smite all while not dying! If you lower the RF generated from fueled fury (by not proccing it on icd everytime for instance) or smite (because of less targets hit), the great weapon salvation build using this target drops in hps significantly more than standard book salv. And if you can't afford to be near the front line and you have to supplicate, great weapon tanls in HPS.
As I stated their that is only under the most perfect of circumstanced. Very few Salvation WPs are going to try this spec, and even less will stick with it after they try it. The OP's proposal safely would only help grace or wrath WPs that have slotted the tactic cast heals whenever they cannot lifetap. As for 2H they do not compensate a ton of STR. They add 5x the DpS DIFFERENCE of the two weapons in MELEE POWER (str adds strikethrough, melee power doesn't.) Which is 155mp considering current bis 1h vs 2h for WP. Also, adding points into grace doesn't improve the usefulness of divine assault that much, it adds 5/3 damage per strike on a 4 hit ability per point spent. So with 7 pts into grace, it equals a total of 47 more damage, before mitigation.
OldSerpenT wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 8:30 pm
Great way to explain things. "It's fairly common knowledge".
"It's fairly common knowledge that Order classes have more convenient career trees setup than their Destro mirrors"
I'm sharing my observation of a mirror class that is in capacity of dealing a lot of damage and heal more than 70+ zealot in the same PUG party. The proposal here is about boosting heals even more.
I already tried to explain you what is the difference between dual wield and 2h. Dunno if you actually read it, but just as a reminder: DPS of 2h weapon compensates a lot of STR. Not sure if that's what you call "stronger". Could you please clarify Your definition of "stronger"?
Exalted Defenses doesn't negate the effect of Divine Fury, because you have to sacrifice your offensive stats in order to raise your defense, so you could interrupt/dodge/parry often enough to keep +20% healing. So it is at the cost of 2 tactic slots and offensive stats. It works well for healer WP, but defeats the purpose of DF if you set up your WP to make ED work.
Oh... Isn't that what our topicstarter just stated? He can't go into the fry, because he's full offense and can't survive as MDPS.
You're right. I didn't explain it well, and honestly wouldn't do justice to the topic by attempting to explain why dps dok > dps WP, but if you play the game at all you see the rampant amount of dps doks in pug scs (talking upwards of 4 or 5 in some instances) and sometimes a dps WP who gets stomped. So again, dps WP <> dps dok, and this proposal isn't even about dps WP; it's about melee healing WP.
The OP is not full offense. He takes Discpline & Exalted Defenses tactics and Divine Light/Pious Restoration to boost his casted healing abilities and does not take Intimidating Repent. If you read the OP you would see that he has no points to put into Wrath (Wrath is the dps tree). The OP is also tying the tactic to 2h (book WP would not pick this up).
So, finally, I'm growing tired of your irrelevant tangents into how effective dps doks are (the mirrors are not equal; no mirrors are) and how they have the potential to out heal some high RR zealot in one pug scenario. It's a vast discrepancy from page one of this proposal, which features data to support the OP. Please keep posts from here on out relevant to the discussion.
I'm growing tired of you glance-reading and cherry-picking. You made a statement about DoKs, I answered it. And I didn't say anything about effectiveness of DPS DoKs in the post that you quoted. Please, respond to the whole post without attempts to twist its meaning.
What spec do you use as a healer? Right. Salv/Wrath if you want to have AoE detaunt.
What spec would you use as a healer if you can boost your steady healing output by 25%? Right, you'll go Salv/Grace and pick the proposed tactic as it will boost healing output for the price of having only direct detaunt. Oh, isn't it same as all light armor healers have? I think with my medium armor and current situation with disrupt I can just stack lil bit more armor and I'll be totally fine.
Oh, right... Totally forgot... I have a 2h weapon now. But I'm tanky enough as a healer to use smite and I can occasionally smack enemies in a face with my hammer when I feel like it, because I have 2h and it compensates a lots of STR.
Oh... 7 points in Grace tree... Why not to use Divine Assault to deal with these pesky Witch Elves? o_0
Please do not bring projection into the balance forums ("glance-reading and cherry-picking"). You brought up doks with your irrelevant pug scenario anecdote, and your continuous tangents into areas in which you literally have no idea about, seeing as you have no WP and your DoK is a whopping level 13, will no longer be tolerated.
Your scenario in which a WP specs 2h to get this tactic is the intended outcome of the spec. One weakness of the spec, as you mentioned, involves not having an aoe detaunt. Another weakness is that your RF runs low unless you constantly have access to something to hit; you don't get Pursuit, so you can be effectively kited. Another weakness is, in the current meta, you not normally having a guard in a standard 2-2-2 setup with 2mdps. Not including the many ways you can increase build times or increase cooldown timers to counter melee healing, this would not, in my mind, be an overperforming spec. What it would do is allow for variety and open up melee healing as a viable option, with risk, without dipping into Wrath.
Ramasee wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 12:45 pm
Not relevant to the thread's idea, but relevant to oldserpent. Spoilering myself:
Spoiler:
The OP is talking about using grace as a melee healer, not a mdps. Your post was off-topic becuase you did not provide much information for or against in regards to what the OP posted. For instance you could have said that removing the negative healing from divine fury reduces the consequences of that choice because of (insert stuff here)
My post right above your one summarizes it in terms of how it can be used for being cast-healer leaning towards salvation. The proposed tactics revamp will significantly boost not only melee-healing, but the classic cast-healing way for players that can manage fury properly.
Proposed tactics is sitting at 7pt, which means that having Grace as supplemental path at 7pt will allow to have full or almost full 15pt in Salvation.
Spoiler:
Here you can see that YOU were in fact the first person to bring up data that only applies to the DoK in a discussion about a WP tactic.
I brought up data that shows what can DoK/WP type character of high level do. Not to provide break down of what exactly he was doing and how exactly he got that much damage and that much healing, but to show the possible extent of it. It was an attempt to make a reference that it was done without additional buff for healing that proposed tactics would give.
Spoiler:
Rydiak wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 2:06 pm
So if I am understanding you correctly, Grace is pointless to use in RvR so no sense in buffing it. Also, Grace is balanced at the moment and any buff to it would make it overpowered. Bold move, Cotton.
Linking a picture of a DoK doing well in a scenario, in a balance thread about a Warrior Priest tactic...I'm not sure you quite understand the role of the balance forums. I will not be replying to you further.
OldSerpenT wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 2:15 pm
It has nothing to do with DoKs in particular. It has nothing to do with Grace tree in particular. It is all about disbalancing class by adding something that negates effect of Divine Fury which allows to boost both damage and heal output.
I left only what's I think is essential as an answer.
Spoiler:
Ramasee wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 2:42 pm
Now can you show those kind of screenshots along side the tactics that were in use as well as a combat log parser that breaks down that amount of healing and what ability caused it.
%healing increases do not effect lifetap style heals. I'm willing to bet that most of Hayzz's healing in that scenario came from transfer essence (lifetap), devour essence (life tap), rend soul (life tap), and maybe soul infusion (HoT, mostly on himself). AND the reason the healing got that high is because of those two engineers spamming AoE DoTs. So your transfer essence were constantly healing pretty much everyone in your group. And this tactic would not increase that type of healing.
As for the anyone that disregard divine fury, fairly certain I made a long post describing that benefit.
As I said it's to show the extent of capacity. Obviously I don't have parses.
Spoiler:
dansari wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 3:34 pm
It's fairly common knowledge that dps DoK is stronger than dps WP. Furthermore, dps DoK is a pug killer. You sharing one pug scenario of a dps DoK who participated in 45 kills to order's 2 is not relevant to the discussion for two glaring reasons: it's a pug sc, and it's a DoK.
Regarding the proposal: Exalted Defenses can already negate the negative effect of Divine Fury, at the cost of two tactic slots. I don't follow the logic that this causes an imbalance by investing in a 7pt tactic for the same purpose.
OldSerpenT wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 8:30 pm
Great way to explain things. "It's fairly common knowledge".
"It's fairly common knowledge that Order classes have more convenient career trees setup than their Destro mirrors"
I'm sharing my observation of a mirror class that is in capacity of dealing a lot of damage and heal more than 70+ zealot in the same PUG party. The proposal here is about boosting heals even more.
I already tried to explain you what is the difference between dual wield and 2h. Dunno if you actually read it, but just as a reminder: DPS of 2h weapon compensates a lot of STR. Not sure if that's what you call "stronger". Could you please clarify Your definition of "stronger"?
Exalted Defenses doesn't negate the effect of Divine Fury, because you have to sacrifice your offensive stats in order to raise your defense, so you could interrupt/dodge/parry often enough to keep +20% healing. So it is at the cost of 2 tactic slots and offensive stats. It works well for healer WP, but defeats the purpose of DF if you set up your WP to make ED work.
Oh... Isn't that what our topicstarter just stated? He can't go into the fry, because he's full offense and can't survive as MDPS.
The whole big problem of all these discussions is that people want to "fix" something that doesn't please them by drastic change or complete remodeling ability or tactic. It's not balancing. You can't tune guitar with power tools or by putting strings in different order and randomly changing gauge. You slowly tighten or loosen strings. Same thing here.
Spoiler:
Rydiak wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 5:00 pm
I play a LOT of Grace, and incoming chip damage that cannot be life-tapped away (because current combat is too dangerous to engage in) is the bane of the spec. That chip damage builds and builds and you end up in a situation where now you (or your group) cannot even enter melee combat at all because you don't have the hitpoints for it. Now you need to rely on other healers from your group or warband to cover your role until you can be of any use. Alleviating that issue is one of the purposes of the proposal, and Leading the Prayer seemed like the perfect home for anything that helped that situation because the tactic deals with keeping the Warrior Priest alive.
Since Grace cannot effectively counter chip damage outside of melee combat, because they sacrifice so much in their casted heals to survive/be effective in melee, the obvious buff would be to make casted heals not as poor but at the cost of a Greatweapon, a mastery point, and a tactic slot.
The proposal won't make Grace-specced casted heals on the same level as Salvation-specced casted heals, nor should it. It should only provide another avenue for Grace to choose to accomplish the goal of keeping players alive as a healer. Countering the heal effectiveness debuff of Divine Fury/Fanaticism simply does that.
This post wasn't for me, but my idea about it is summarized in the post that is right above yours. And again, if you are good with managing fury, you don't need the book.
As far as I can tell, you have not replied to this person's points against your "arguments", old serpent.
I think I did...
.
First off, it really isn't an absurd request to ask for a combat parser log report of how much healing came from casted heals versus lifetap heals when we are talking about a tactic that only increases CASTED heals, not life taps. As I surmised, the DoK their did mostly lifetap oriented healing and if he had this tactic active wouldn't have seen much benefit. Also to prove how easy it is to get this info: https://imgur.com/a/BxtIP6U
I did a scenario real quick on my orvr-specced, deftard tank just to get combat log parse numbers and put them on top of a scenario. SURELY you can recreate the scenario results you posted earlier of only a dok, but make it a WP and then post the same combat log parsing to breakdown which abilities created your healing.
I think I clearly stated that it was PuG scenario and some high level DoK. It's not my DoK.
.
So in the end it is really you that has been glance reading and cherry picking. You made the statement about DoKs, not any of us. We have been responding to the whole thread and all of your posts entirely, linking them together. This is what you are supposed to do in a forum thread until the opponent retracts their point (or stops posting).
Please, read my post there and what was quoted.
.
You are absolutely correct that most healing WPs go salv/wrath for AoE detaunt. But you are wrong that the ONLY thing they lose by going into grace is the detaunt in order to gain the 25% healing. They also lose 8rf per second because they have to use a 2H. Here's the math :
Back to fury management. If you're in healing spec you already have enough survivability to go into fry. Also, talking about "into fry", unless you're in some completely weird PuG warband, you're always in a middle or just little bit behind the front line, so you actually can use smite effectively. Unless you siege keep.
.
Spoiler:
Some assumptions for math. 600 willpower, its on the high end of what you might have while being near the front line. This puts TotD at 631 healing per cast before modifiers. Pious Restoration is 980 over 9s. Martyr's Blessing is 1252 per cast (total of all 4 ticks). This is assuming a 13pt salv, 7pt grace spec for the book. Counting ED 100% uptime even though it isn't, and fueled fury proccing on icd, which doesn't happen all the time either and saying you hit 5 targets with smite each time for 75 rf generated. Also going to do 30s combat timer
---------------------------------------------
With Book and thus no Tactic as proposed by OP
TotD: 757
PR: 1176
MB: 1502
3x Martyr's Blessing, 3x Pious Restoration, 9x touch of the divine, and 3x smites equals out to 494.9 HPS AoE.
---------------------------------------------
With Tactic proposed by OP and thus using great weapon, all other conditions the same:
With Book and thus no Tactic as proposed by OP
TotD: 947
PR: 1470
MB: 1878
3x pious restoration, 3x martyr's blessing, 8x touch of the divines, 4x smites is a total of 587.3 HPS AoE.
-----------------------
That's with near perfect conditions, constant procs from fueled fury and hitting 5 targets with smite all while not dying! If you lower the RF generated from fueled fury (by not proccing it on icd everytime for instance) or smite (because of less targets hit), the great weapon salvation build using this target drops in hps significantly more than standard book salv. And if you can't afford to be near the front line and you have to supplicate, great weapon tanls in HPS.
As I stated their that is only under the most perfect of circumstanced. Very few Salvation WPs are going to try this spec, and even less will stick with it after they try it. The OP's proposal safely would only help grace or wrath WPs that have slotted the tactic cast heals whenever they cannot lifetap. As for 2H they do not compensate a ton of STR. They add 5x the DpS DIFFERENCE of the two weapons in MELEE POWER (str adds strikethrough, melee power doesn't.) Which is 155mp considering current bis 1h vs 2h for WP. Also, adding points into grace doesn't improve the usefulness of divine assault that much, it adds 5/3 damage per strike on a 4 hit ability per point spent. So with 7 pts into grace, it equals a total of 47 more damage, before mitigation.
Test parse. Ok.
Three things that concern me here:
1. Why do you assume only 600 willpower?
I mean, WP heals have low base and they are affected by willpower more than AM/RP heals.
Also 600 willpower is quite suspicious value. I see it as naked WP without potions.
2. You don't have Exalted Defenses effect on you.
3. You don't have Blessing of Grungni effect on you.
Spoiler:
dansari wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 12:56 pm
Please do not bring projection into the balance forums ("glance-reading and cherry-picking"). You brought up doks with your irrelevant pug scenario anecdote, and your continuous tangents into areas in which you literally have no idea about, seeing as you have no WP and your DoK is a whopping level 13, will no longer be tolerated.
First of all, you quoted my post and I answered you. What you quoted was not what you were writing about. And you're keep referring to these two screenshots that I posted. Again, I posted them as an example of possible extent of damage/heal capacity of melee healer with DoK in particular, because for some reason I don't usually do screenshots, but this case impressed me.
Please stop spinning it as you're the moderator and you're the first one to follow the rules as you're here to enforce them.
Sure. My DoK on this server is only lvl13. Same as my BW on this server is only lvl2.
There were no other servers in a world so I can't possibly have any experience playing for these classes.
dansari wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 12:56 pm
Your scenario in which a WP specs 2h to get this tactic is the intended outcome of the spec. One weakness of the spec, as you mentioned, involves not having an aoe detaunt.
I also mentioned medium armor and increased disrupt rate on this server and overall setup that leans towards defense if you're healer.
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Another weakness is that your RF runs low unless you constantly have access to something to hit;
That what's called "wrath management". Also it tells me that you're not aware of Supplication. I used it.
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you don't get Pursuit, so you can be effectively kited.
Why do I need to pursue someone?
Who do you kite in RvR?
Do we still talk about warband scale?
As I can remember the whole shenanigans is about OP can't cast-heal, because he specced to 15-Grace, wears 2h and afraid to go into the fry, because he's dying too fast. Which proposes the idea that he's quite likely has cap of STR and some boosted melee-crit. On another hand I'm talking about how much overperforming will be spec that leans towards Salvation and has Grace as supplemental.
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Another weakness is, in the current meta, you not normally having a guard in a standard 2-2-2 setup with 2mdps.
Again... What's the scale of encounters we're discussing here?
Why does 2-2-2 with 2mdps use melee-healer? Usually it's done to boost party DPS in 6v6 fights. Then why do we talk about some warbands and going or not going into the fry?
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Not including the many ways you can increase build times or increase cooldown timers to counter melee healing, this would not, in my mind, be an overperforming spec.
How many exactly? I know of 3 abilities that increase cooldown.
1. Bad Gas - Squig Herder, AOE. Requires gas squig. Usually SHs have spiky squig as it boosts DPS. But, yes. They use it sometimes. Though SHs are not really appreciated class in warband and usually they're offparty.
2. Not in da face - Black Ork, ST. Requires BOrk to be specced as DPS, which is not for RvR.
3. Tired Already? - Choppa, ST. Requires 2h and to be specced as ST, which is not for RvR.
Again, what's the scale of encounters we're discussing here?
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What it would do is allow for variety and open up melee healing as a viable option, with risk, without dipping into Wrath.
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. Grace will not be overperforming. Salvation will be overperforming, when having Grace as supplementary path. Is it intentional tunnel vision?
Again: revamping is not balancing. Revamping is creating more disbalance.
User has been warned for omnislashing, not understanding balance forum rules, not responding to retorts while creating his own, misrepresenting the OP while fabricating OP's spec to fit the user's not-based-in-reality narrative, inferring that warband play is the only balancing factor as a retort to valid arguments, and generally bringing discussions off-topic and decreasing their value - Dan
Old serpent sorry but you don’t know about anything.
Don't be rude - Dan
And how I understand it is not about dps anything, wp doesn’t deal big dps even if full glass cannon. DF is being used for healing purposes, but it nullifies non melee healing, making willpower only good for disrupt, can’t regen RF, have to be in dangerous melee combat all the time... they have to half ass a bunch of stats because there are too many that they need.
The point is grace is underperforming. It’s too easy to kill a grace wp, even dok, the last melee healer I ever had trouble with was vaping, and even he gets taken out pretty ez now.
Not sure if my opinion fits in here anywhere, but I think they need access to more salvo side healing, especially with the risks they take.
