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[Review] [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer

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Rydiak
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[Review] [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer

Post#1 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:15 pm

Edit- Refocused proposal towards Leading the Prayer in an effort to 'kill two birds with one stone' (buff a sub-optimal Warrior Priest spec and a lackluster tactic at the same time).

ISSUE 1:

Grace, by nature of its design requiring melee to function, is inherently more dangerous to use (especially in chaotic ORVR combat) as a healer than Salvation. Too often a Grace Warrior Priest is required to sit back, out of the fight and unable to output healing, due to the current fight being too dangerous to jump into. Combined with Divine Fury (and often Fanaticism), which provides much needed healing throughput for life-taps (and added survivability in the case of Fanaticism), a Grace Warrior Priest cannot lean back on casted healing abilities due to their vastly reduced casted healing effectiveness from Divine Fury/Fanaticism. Furthermore, with the lack of a Righteous Fury-generating off-hand book, a Greatweapon-equipped Warrior Priest will be hard pressed to generate enough Righteous Fury to even output enough casted heals to matter. This leads to a snowball effect where if a battle is simply too dangerous to jump into melee range, the Grace Warrior Priest outputs little/no healing, which then makes the battle even more dangerous for the Grace Warrior Priest, which reduces healing output etc etc. To a Grace Warrior Priest, healing is survival and survival is healing.

A spec which I personally have found success with (and also made very well aware of its own weaknesses) is a hybrid spec forgoing the traditional dip into the Wrath tree (which picks up Intimidating Repent) for a dive into Salvation, picking up Divine Light and Pious Restoration. I also then opt out of Divine Fury/Fanaticism and instead take Discipline/Exalted Defenses, which allow my casted healing abilities to remain effective despite being Grace and therefore helps reduce the glaring shortcomings of Grace. Again though, this carries its own shortcomings:
  • A Grace/Salvation build is much more vulnerable compared to a Grace/Wrath build because it lacks the additional parry from Fanaticism and the AoE detaunt from Intimidating Repent, both of which are critical for surviving in a melee deathball.
  • The lack of Divine Fury/Fanaticism reduces the damage output of a spec designed for hitting things in melee combat, which directly feeds into the efficacy of healing via life-taps, and requires a heavier-lean onto casted heals, which themselves will be sub-optimal compared to a pure Salvation build due to equipped Strength/Parry-Strikethrough gear.
ISSUE 2:

The 8-point Grace tactic, Leading the Prayer, has always been seen as a very lackluster or "win more" tactic (e.g. it doesn't help you do better when you are losing, and only helps you "win more" when you are already doing fine). The tactic needs an additional effect to be more appealing for use (especially in solo play where it is currently worthless, and compared to every other Warrior Priest tactic), and ideally a buff to Leading the Prayer could encourage the use of Prayer of Devotion as an alternative to the ever-popular Prayer of Righteousness.

Leading the Prayer is therefore the perfect home for any proposed buff to Grace Warrior Priests.



PROPOSAL:

Provide a buff to the tactic Leading the Prayer, to include the following effect:

Your healing abilities will become 25%** more effective when equipped with a Greatweapon.
**The intent of this buff is to counter-balance a single instance of the "your healing becomes 20% less effective" effect from Divine Fury/Fanaticism. Through testing Exalted Defenses combined with Divine Fury, it can be seen that buffs and debuffs to "healing effectiveness" from tactics are multiplicative, so a 25% increase to healing effectiveness is needed to counter-balance the 20% decrease to healing effectiveness (100% * 80% * 125% = 100%).



REASONING:

In either build (traditional Grace/Wrath or hybrid Grace/Salvation), Grace Warrior Priests will benefit from increased casted heal output which will make them feel not-as-useless/more competitive when unable to safely enter melee combat. They also will be able to increase their own survivability by self-HoTing, allowing them increased health regeneration and thus a longer up-time in combat (and more competitive healing output as a result).

Ideally, a choice would be created with a change like this, not only in the requirement of choosing to slot the tactic itself, but also in what other tactics you slot next to it. A player could continue to spec both Divine Fury and Fanaticism, and not suffer as terribly for it with their casted heals. Or, a player could not spec Divine Fury nor Fanaticism, and see a benefit to casted heals (obviously sacrificing life-tap efficacy and some melee survivability). OR, a player could take either Divine Fury or Fanaticism, and enjoy a 100% effective casted heal and forgo the benefits of the other tactic.

As a side benefit, this buff may see the long-pointless "Willpower Greatweapon" start to be used among traditional Salvation Warrior Priests who are looking for an alternative to the meta off-hand book build. At a cost of 8 Mastery points (the same cost as the popular Wrath tree Intimidating Repent), a Salvation Warrior Priest could trade the book off-hand for a Greatweapon, swapping Intimidating Repent and Righteous Fury-generation (combat sustain) for Leading the Prayer and more burst healing out of the 250-point Righteous Fury pool (depending on Supplication to regain Righteous Fury).
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dansari
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Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic

Post#2 » Sat May 05, 2018 9:38 am

Moving to discussions. Closed May 19.
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Rydiak
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Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#3 » Sun May 06, 2018 9:47 pm

I would like to kick-off the discussion on a slight tangent and address the last point of the original post: the side benefit of a Salvation-build Warrior Priest utilizing the proposed Leading the Prayer tactic and a Greatweapon.

Using Touch of the Divine with a book off-hand:
  • A book off-hand regenerates 8 RF/sec
  • Touch of the Divine has a cast/cooldown of 1.5 seconds and costs 60 RF/cast
  • +8 RF/sec * 1.5 sec = +12 RF
  • 60 RF - 12 RF = 48 effective RF per TotD
  • 250 max RF (pool) / 48 RF/cast = 5.20833 effective TotD casted per full RF pool
Using Touch of the Divine with a Greatweapon:
  • Touch of the Divine has a cast/cooldown of 1.5 seconds and costs 60 RF/cast
  • 250 max RF (pool) / 60 RF/cast = 4.166 effective TotD casted per full RF pool
  • 4.166 * 125% (Leading the Prayer) = 5.20833 effective TotD casted per full RF pool
Both the book off-hand and the Greatweapon (Leading the Prayer) builds would have the same effective TotD casts per full RF pool of 5.20833. Obviously there would be subtle differences: the book off-hand would continue to regen RF after that period while the Greatweapon would need to start casting Supplication to regen any RF (no passive regen), the Greatweapon would have higher heal output per cast while the book would have higher cast output per time period.

Therefore, I do not think any horizontal buff to Salvation would be a problem, and instead would only serve to provide more options.
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Toldavf
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Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#4 » Mon May 07, 2018 12:41 am

So you could potentialy have a stacking total of 45% heal strength + rune priest.

Onslaught is a set currently so if i stack defensively as possible and smite in between the 45rf procs, receiving guard when needed my healing out put should be what? Immensely high i should imagine.

So your average fight kicks off your prehot is just straight up 25% bigger, then and since your heals are much larger their is also probably less need to spam and more time to recover RF in between um.

Gotta say i don't like this suggestion

Current itemization isn't a basis for balance. So having Onslaught in game doesn't determine the validity of the proposal (rule #6) - Dan
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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Rydiak
Posts: 770

Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#5 » Mon May 07, 2018 12:57 am

Blessing of Grungni works with any cast heal spell as it is so I don't think it is a very fair comparison to make, though I understand the concern with multiple heal buffs stacking.

The original inspiration for the proposed Leading the Prayer buff was an Exalted Defenses that didn't require an avoidance proc (e.g. a Grace WP that couldn't afford to expose himself to combat) and was slightly more potent because it required not only an additional Mastery point to be spent but a Greatweapon to be equipped. No one complains about Exalted Defenses with Blessing of Grungni, and if you are close enough to hit with Smite you are close enough to receive and Parry/Dodge/Disrupt fluff AoE. If stacking buffs is a concern (and I agree it could be an issue) would it be possible to make Leading the Prayer and Exalted Defenses non-stackable?

Ps thanks for the reply. I was afraid this discussion was going to be lonely.
Interested in the Grace playstyle but don't know where to start? Check out my Grace guide!

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#6 » Tue May 08, 2018 3:50 am

The rules for balance forums prohibits what are essentially +1 posts, so a few of us didn't have anything to add to your well thought out post that we agreed with and no points to argue against it. (It was discussed in our discord though!)

Onslaught is a set currently. One that most of us do not have, and under the current loot table for the pqs; it is unlikely for most of us to get the set anytime soon. Also, according to the balance proposal rules, we are supposed to ignore gear procs when balancing class abilities/tactics.

The % healing stack multiplicatively as the OP stated, so it would be 150% healing with Leading the Prayer and Exalted Defenses procced, not 145%. But this requires a great weapon. There is a weakness to using a great weapon when trying to be a healer. And that is the lowered RF regen. You can be snared, disarmed, rooted, or knocked away to where you cannot generate RF quickly. Supplication will not keep up with a salv+book wp, even with this tactic.

Some assumptions for math. 600 willpower, its on the high end of what you might have while being near the front line. This puts TotD at 631 healing per cast before modifiers. Pious Restoration is 980 over 9s. Martyr's Blessing is 1252 per cast (total of all 4 ticks). This is assuming a 13pt salv, 7pt grace spec for the book. Counting ED 100% uptime even though it isn't, and fueled fury proccing on icd, which doesn't happen all the time either and saying you hit 5 targets with smite each time for 75 rf generated. Also going to do 30s combat timer

---------------------------------------------
With Book and thus no Tactic as proposed by OP
TotD: 757
PR: 1176
MB: 1502

start: PR (210rf)
1.5s: MB (158)
3s: still mb channel (209) FF proc
4.5s: TotD (157)
6: Smite /FF proc (250)
7.5: TotD (198)
9: TotD / FF Proc (189)
10.5: PR (157)
12: FF proc / TotD (148)
13.5: Smite (231)
15: FF proc / MB (222)
16.5: MB Still (230)
18: FF proc / Totd (186)
19.5: TotD (134)
21: FF proc / PR (145)
22.5: Smite (228)
24: FF proc / TotD (219)
25.5: TotD (167)
27: FF proc / TotD (160)
28.5: MB (108)
30: FF proc/ MB still (159)

3x Martyr's Blessing, 3x Pious Restoration, 9x touch of the divine, and 3x smites equals out to 494.9 HPS AoE.

---------------------------------------------
With Tactic proposed by OP and thus using great weapon, all other conditions the same:
With Book and thus no Tactic as proposed by OP
TotD: 947
PR: 1470
MB: 1878

Start: PR (210)
1.5s: MB (150)
3: MB still / FF proc (185)
4.5: TotD (125)
6: FF proc / Smite (235)
7.5: TotD (175)
9: FF proc / TotD (140)
10.5: PR (100)
12: FF proc / Smite (210)
13.5: TotD (150)
15: MB / FF proc (125)
16.5: MB still (125)
18: FF proc / Smite (235)
19.5: TotD (175)
21: PR / FF proc (170)
22.5: TotD (110)
24: FF proc / Smite (220)
25.5: TotD (160)
27: FF proc / TotD (135)
28.5: MB (65)
30: MB still / FF proc (100)

3x pious restoration, 3x martyr's blessing, 8x touch of the divines, 4x smites is a total of 587.3 HPS AoE.

-----------------------
That's with near perfect conditions, constant procs from fueled fury and hitting 5 targets with smite all while not dying! If you lower the RF generated from fueled fury (by not proccing it on icd everytime for instance) or smite (because of less targets hit), the great weapon salvation build using this target drops in hps significantly more than standard book salv. And if you can't afford to be near the front line and you have to supplicate, great weapon tanls in HPS.

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OldSerpenT
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Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#7 » Wed May 16, 2018 11:22 am

Healers have "Divine Fury" tactic so you could ask yourself a question: damage or heal?
WP/DoK have additional choice - 2h/dual wield. You can ask yourself a question again: damage or heal?
Also WP/DoK have medium armor and armor bonuses from sets along with boosted (compared to live) disrupt chance. There are also talismans and variety of RR perks, so you could ask yourself another question: live longer or strike harder?
I thought these little choice paths are for reason.

Oh, little note: if you die too fast as MDPS WP/DoK in warband, it's also for reason. You can't deal significant AoE damage and you don't heal. What's the point on wasting guard on you when slayer or BW can kill more and faster? Maybe you should consider different spec for RvR. Spec that you use could be efficient for scenarios or small encounters when you play in assist-party, but not large scale fights.
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dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#8 » Wed May 16, 2018 1:05 pm

OldSerpenT wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 11:22 am
Spoiler:
Healers have "Divine Fury" tactic so you could ask yourself a question: damage or heal?
WP/DoK have additional choice - 2h/dual wield. You can ask yourself a question again: damage or heal?
Also WP/DoK have medium armor and armor bonuses from sets along with boosted (compared to live) disrupt chance. There are also talismans and variety of RR perks, so you could ask yourself another question: live longer or strike harder?
I thought these little choice paths are for reason.

Oh, little note: if you die too fast as MDPS WP/DoK in warband, it's also for reason. You can't deal significant AoE damage and you don't heal. What's the point on wasting guard on you when slayer or BW can kill more and faster? Maybe you should consider different spec for RvR. Spec that you use could be efficient for scenarios or small encounters when you play in assist-party, but not large scale fights.
This is not really relevant. You're basically saying: your spec isn't good for rvr so why would we change it to make it viable? WP have a lot of damage or healing % modifying tactics that they slot based on situation, and healing via melee is not the same as DPS healing.
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OldSerpenT
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Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#9 » Wed May 16, 2018 1:35 pm

dansari wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 1:05 pm
OldSerpenT wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 11:22 am
Spoiler:
Healers have "Divine Fury" tactic so you could ask yourself a question: damage or heal?
WP/DoK have additional choice - 2h/dual wield. You can ask yourself a question again: damage or heal?
Also WP/DoK have medium armor and armor bonuses from sets along with boosted (compared to live) disrupt chance. There are also talismans and variety of RR perks, so you could ask yourself another question: live longer or strike harder?
I thought these little choice paths are for reason.

Oh, little note: if you die too fast as MDPS WP/DoK in warband, it's also for reason. You can't deal significant AoE damage and you don't heal. What's the point on wasting guard on you when slayer or BW can kill more and faster? Maybe you should consider different spec for RvR. Spec that you use could be efficient for scenarios or small encounters when you play in assist-party, but not large scale fights.
This is not really relevant. You're basically saying: your spec isn't good for rvr so why would we change it to make it viable? WP have a lot of damage or healing % modifying tactics that they slot based on situation, and healing via melee is not the same as DPS healing.
This is balance forum, right? I described the idea of balance of WP/DoK, because I see that not everyone is aware of it.
I'm basically saying that careers have different specs for different situations. Some specs are good for 6v6 but they don't work for RvR, and vice versa.
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Rydiak
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Re: [Warrior Priest] Leading the Prayer - Tactic [Close Date May 19]

Post#10 » Wed May 16, 2018 1:40 pm

OldSerpenT wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 1:35 pm
dansari wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 1:05 pm
OldSerpenT wrote: Wed May 16, 2018 11:22 am
Spoiler:
Healers have "Divine Fury" tactic so you could ask yourself a question: damage or heal?
WP/DoK have additional choice - 2h/dual wield. You can ask yourself a question again: damage or heal?
Also WP/DoK have medium armor and armor bonuses from sets along with boosted (compared to live) disrupt chance. There are also talismans and variety of RR perks, so you could ask yourself another question: live longer or strike harder?
I thought these little choice paths are for reason.

Oh, little note: if you die too fast as MDPS WP/DoK in warband, it's also for reason. You can't deal significant AoE damage and you don't heal. What's the point on wasting guard on you when slayer or BW can kill more and faster? Maybe you should consider different spec for RvR. Spec that you use could be efficient for scenarios or small encounters when you play in assist-party, but not large scale fights.
This is not really relevant. You're basically saying: your spec isn't good for rvr so why would we change it to make it viable? WP have a lot of damage or healing % modifying tactics that they slot based on situation, and healing via melee is not the same as DPS healing.
This is balance forum, right? I described the idea of balance of WP/DoK, because I see that not everyone is aware of it.
I'm basically saying that careers have different specs for different situations. Some specs are good for 6v6 but they don't work for RvR, and vice versa.
We are aware that the Grace Warrior Priest is suboptimal in RvR. That is why I made a proposal to help it and why it was elevated to discussion. What, specifically, about the proposal do you wish to discuss? Strawmanning that players "aren't aware" that a spec is weak while in the balance forum strikes me as redundant and a waste of time.

Do you have an issue with the percentage number? The proposed effect in general? Please provide some numbers so a discussion can be had.
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Check out my Damage Calculator. Also includes extra RoR calculators! -Updated for 01/25/24 patch!

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