[Chosen] Discordant Fluctuation

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Fallenkezef
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Re: [Chosen] Discordant Fluctuation [Close Date: 5th May]

Post#11 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:18 am

Darks63 wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:07 am
Considering Order has one less MRDPS and destro has one more it would almost be more useful to swap this aura and OYG.
I was thinking that myself.

Another option is to have it trigger off any ranged attack, that adds SW and Engi to the list of affected.

However straight swapping it with the Knight's version would work for both classes
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Toldavf
Posts: 1561

Re: [Chosen] Discordant Fluctuation [Close Date: 5th May]

Post#12 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:05 am

Darks63 wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:07 am
Considering Order has one less MRDPS and destro has one more it would almost be more useful to swap this aura and OYG.
Probably a good enough reason to leave it exactly as it is now. Increasing both tanks perceived power level is unesisary they are good enough as they are.

Don't care much for how people 'perceive' classes in these forums. A class can be both potent and have abilities/tactics that could do with some finetuning. I believe Chosen is at a stage now where certain aspects can be fine-tuned. - ptp3
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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Aurandilaz
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Re: [Chosen] Discordant Fluctuation [Close Date: 5th May]

Post#13 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:36 am

This aura is quite fine in its current form. Its primary function is to counter BW dmg, especially and mostly in Warband sized gameplay.
The reason why people might perceive it "weak" is because of the limited amount of proper Order guilds running a proper 5-8 BW bomb wb and the limited amount of proper Destro warband guilds running proper warbands where they work to counter the magnificent BW bomb dmg.
Does it have use in 6man-scale? Not really unless enemy brings 2 BWs and maybe dps RP or dps AM.
But will a properly built Destro warband with several chosens facing a proper Order premade warband with half a dozen BWs find use for the ability; oh yes.


If it were changed to counter all kinds of non-physical Dmg, it would start hurting Engi considerably, hurt Sm a lot, even cause grievances to dps WP and even make WHs wonder why they get hurt when firing Bullets.
At this point the question would become 1) are Engis going wild and would Destro need Chosen buff so they can be contained? 2) Is dps SM still too much of a threat and needs Chosen buff to be countered (how much could DF hurt a SM who has Blurring Shock on someone? 3) too many dps WPs and should Chosen be able to counter them even more better? 4) are WH bullets something that should start causing dmg back to the WH when facing Chosen?


Does it work fine now for WB scale? Yep
Does it remain somewhat useless for 6man scale? Yep

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Fallenkezef
Posts: 1256

Re: [Chosen] Discordant Fluctuation [Close Date: 5th May]

Post#14 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:53 am

Aurandilaz wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:36 am
This aura is quite fine in its current form. Its primary function is to counter BW dmg, especially and mostly in Warband sized gameplay.
The reason why people might perceive it "weak" is because of the limited amount of proper Order guilds running a proper 5-8 BW bomb wb and the limited amount of proper Destro warband guilds running proper warbands where they work to counter the magnificent BW bomb dmg.
Does it have use in 6man-scale? Not really unless enemy brings 2 BWs and maybe dps RP or dps AM.
But will a properly built Destro warband with several chosens facing a proper Order premade warband with half a dozen BWs find use for the ability; oh yes.


If it were changed to counter all kinds of non-physical Dmg, it would start hurting Engi considerably, hurt Sm a lot, even cause grievances to dps WP and even make WHs wonder why they get hurt when firing Bullets.
At this point the question would become 1) are Engis going wild and would Destro need Chosen buff so they can be contained? 2) Is dps SM still too much of a threat and needs Chosen buff to be countered (how much could DF hurt a SM who has Blurring Shock on someone? 3) too many dps WPs and should Chosen be able to counter them even more better? 4) are WH bullets something that should start causing dmg back to the WH when facing Chosen?


Does it work fine now for WB scale? Yep
Does it remain somewhat useless for 6man scale? Yep


If a skill or aura is there to counter ONE class as you suggest, then by definition it is weak. Considering there are 12 classes on the hostile faction......

Amongst your flawed logic you do make one valid point. Engis are hampered already against Chosen due to a lack of magical output.

This is why I suggest the best solution would be to simply swap the Knight and Chosen aura around.
Alea iacta est

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Aurandilaz
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Re: [Chosen] Discordant Fluctuation [Close Date: 5th May]

Post#15 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:19 am

Fallenkezef wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:53 am


If a skill or aura is there to counter ONE class as you suggest, then by definition it is weak. Considering there are 12 classes on the hostile faction......

Amongst your flawed logic you do make one valid point. Engis are hampered already against Chosen due to a lack of magical output.

This is why I suggest the best solution would be to simply swap the Knight and Chosen aura around.

It's not just one class we are talking about, its AoE specced bomb BWs.
The core and main dmg of any good Order warband. And you stack 4-8 of them to the available dmg dealer slots in a Warband and go melt things.

Good order warband composition:
7 BWs 1 engi
8 BWs
decent composition
6 BWs 1 engi 1 slayer
6 BWs 2 engis
5 Bws 2 engi 1 slayer
acceptable composition
4 Bws 3 engi 1 slayer
meh composition
3 BWs + something
"are you even trying" composition
2 BWs
"go back to pugland" composition
1 lone BW

Is BW the best bomber in game? Hell yeah.
Should any good Order WB stack damn many BWs? Oh yeah.
Will any good Destro wb fighting a good Order wb need Chosen with anti magic aura to counter all the BWs? Damn right.
I don't know how much you remember of live, but considerable amount of servers were more or less literally bombed to death by BWs. Sure, here they have been nerfed quite thoroughly, but since the other options for WB, classes like WH and WL have no Aoe to speak of, SW got a Nerfknife to the gut and all the LA spam vanished, and Slayer is renown pinata walking around unless played with extreme care; the core of the Warband has to include as many BWs as possible and the remainder are magnet engis rifting all the innocent goblins in the middle of the fiery bomb of death.

And how does Destro keep countering all those BWs? With that specific Chosen aura purposely built to make BWs think before trying to bomb Chosens, lest they start hurting themselves too much with FP + dmg + dmg + dmg + dmg hitting a Chosen, it will result in considerable amount of dmg reflected back to the BW.

Current state of DF is fine for Warband level gameplay. For smaller scale it suffers because facing less bombing BWs there. However if you make it work against all non-physical dmg, classes like SM and Engi (and even the already squishy WH + occasional dps WPs) will definitely suffer in smaller scale when facing a good Chosen.

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Fallenkezef
Posts: 1256

Re: [Chosen] Discordant Fluctuation [Close Date: 5th May]

Post#16 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:28 am

Aurandilaz wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:19 am
Fallenkezef wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:53 am


If a skill or aura is there to counter ONE class as you suggest, then by definition it is weak. Considering there are 12 classes on the hostile faction......

Amongst your flawed logic you do make one valid point. Engis are hampered already against Chosen due to a lack of magical output.

This is why I suggest the best solution would be to simply swap the Knight and Chosen aura around.

It's not just one class we are talking about, its AoE specced bomb BWs.
The core and main dmg of any good Order warband. And you stack 4-8 of them to the available dmg dealer slots in a Warband and go melt things.

Good order warband composition:
7 BWs 1 engi
8 BWs
decent composition
6 BWs 1 engi 1 slayer
6 BWs 2 engis
5 Bws 2 engi 1 slayer
acceptable composition
4 Bws 3 engi 1 slayer
meh composition
3 BWs + something
"are you even trying" composition
2 BWs
"go back to pugland" composition
1 lone BW

Is BW the best bomber in game? Hell yeah.
Should any good Order WB stack damn many BWs? Oh yeah.
Will any good Destro wb fighting a good Order wb need Chosen with anti magic aura to counter all the BWs? Damn right.
I don't know how much you remember of live, but considerable amount of servers were more or less literally bombed to death by BWs. Sure, here they have been nerfed quite thoroughly, but since the other options for WB, classes like WH and WL have no Aoe to speak of, SW got a Nerfknife to the gut and all the LA spam vanished, and Slayer is renown pinata walking around unless played with extreme care; the core of the Warband has to include as many BWs as possible and the remainder are magnet engis rifting all the innocent goblins in the middle of the fiery bomb of death.

And how does Destro keep countering all those BWs? With that specific Chosen aura purposely built to make BWs think before trying to bomb Chosens, lest they start hurting themselves too much with FP + dmg + dmg + dmg + dmg hitting a Chosen, it will result in considerable amount of dmg reflected back to the BW.

Current state of DF is fine for Warband level gameplay. For smaller scale it suffers because facing less bombing BWs there. However if you make it work against all non-physical dmg, classes like SM and Engi (and even the already squishy WH + occasional dps WPs) will definitely suffer in smaller scale when facing a good Chosen.
The effectiveness of BW bombing is not in question.

The flawed logic of an aura being there to counter just ONE spec of ONE class is in question however.
Alea iacta est

wargnidalulz
Posts: 35

Re: [Chosen] Discordant Fluctuation [Close Date: 5th May]

Post#17 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:51 am

Toldavf wrote:I don't really see the need for this, it already has a big enough role in a warband 4 different groups with this aura is allot of return damage really for no effort.
Aurandilaz wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:36 am
This aura is quite fine in its current form. Its primary function is to counter BW dmg, especially and mostly in Warband sized gameplay.
The reason why people might perceive it "weak" is because of the limited amount of proper Order guilds running a proper 5-8 BW bomb wb and the limited amount of proper Destro warband guilds running proper warbands where they work to counter the magnificent BW bomb dmg.
Please humor me and show me a class that has an ability that is (realistically) tailored to only be potent against one enemy class in a specific environment.
Toldavf wrote:Its a bit of a kick to sm but they can probably deal with it and won't have much problem. Engineers might be much harder hit which is something we should avoid i think as that class isn't exactly the strongest.
Aurandilaz wrote:If it were changed to counter all kinds of non-physical Dmg, it would start hurting Engi considerably, hurt Sm a lot, even cause grievances to dps WP and even make WHs wonder why they get hurt when firing Bullets.
Engineer magical abilities are predominantly dot's, hence one of my proposals was to change the trigger to direct damage abilities only if if the balance team deemed it too potent. That way the aura would still gain a larger pool of potential triggers.
Even if we leave the trigger on dot tick's as it is now it can still only trigger once in a span of 3 seconds... so the Engineer that would get hurt so bad by this change is able to put out at least 3-5 timestamps of damage within that time and it will only get hit back once.

I will have to resort to quoting myself... since people are missing the point of this change and are focusing on the damage...
wargnidalulz wrote:You can take as many hits as the server can handle in a span of 3 seconds and you will only trigger the aura once anyway(damage source from the same enemy).
Obviously the effect gets compounded the more people you hit but that is still only a multiplier of the number of enemies you hit. That is kind of the point of the ability isn't it? Being a group buff and all.
Fallenkezef wrote:If a skill or aura is there to counter ONE class as you suggest, then by definition it is weak. Considering there are 12 classes on the hostile faction......
Finally someone who see's the point of this proposal.
The goal is not to increase the DPS potential but to increase the likelihood of it triggering. A damage nerf, albeit being small is needed in my opinion for balance purposes, because increasing the number of potential trigger's is a DPS increase in it self. But that is for the Dev's to decide.

Less omnislashing - Dan
Last edited by wargnidalulz on Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tesq
Posts: 4323

Re: [Chosen] Discordant Fluctuation [Close Date: 5th May]

Post#18 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:02 am

We are not missing the point we agree on increase the range of avaiable proc skills make to mane it more usable outside bw counter wb but we dont agree on the dmg nerf.

For the simple reason that for the alredy explained casistic the dmg will not increase it will just make aura be use in enviromemt where is not atm so a dmg nerf is not need.
Last edited by Tesq on Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ragafury
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Re: [Chosen] Discordant Fluctuation [Close Date: 5th May]

Post#19 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:03 am

switching it with on your guard, which wasn't presented even in a somewhat decent way is imo a bad change for wb balance overall. also on my book I count 5 mdps as current options vs 4 mdps. (slayer, dps wp, melee sw, white lion, (edit: forgot WH) vs choppa, marauder, dok dps, we (edit: maybe melee SH in the future) ((not even counting the 4 tanks (BO,BG, IB, SM) which can add considerable asisst dmg) how viable they are, how desired in a setup, how much actual dmg uptime they have on a target and so on, is a discussion for itself.)

in wb's it has it's place to counter a very dominant class, how many warbands than again make actually use of it, is again, another topic. "bane shield" and "dire shielding tactic" is an chosen internal contester to Discordant Fluctuation itself. Discordant Fluctuation is not "very sexy".

can agree that the aura itself is underperforming on average cause of it's very specific design, sometimes it's not worth a switch even if you fight said class in smallscale cause of it's more fluffy dmg nature and the powerlevel of the defensive auras + that BW is not that great of a class in limited spaces like SC's were kiting and / or long casts are less of an option combined with lack of defenses.

I would roll with proposal 2 to open the aura for a greater variety of targets.
not sure if decreased dmg is even needed. again, fluffy nature.
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Jinxypie
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Re: [Chosen] Discordant Fluctuation [Close Date: 5th May]

Post#20 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:43 pm

Also vote for second proposal. Since Chosen have no burst at all, atleast he could bite this way a bit left and right BW or not. Yet he still need to sacrifice another aura for it, so cant see it causing any imbalance or loldps chosens swarm.
DoK RR71, Chosen RR57, Choppa RR56, Zealot RR53, Marauder RR46, Magus RR45, Black Guard RR42, Shaman RR41

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