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[Kotbs] Biting Blade

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blechkautz
Posts: 83

[Kotbs] Biting Blade

Post#1 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:06 am

Biting blade is a tactic, which puts a dot and a 5% decrease to parry on your target, if you hit it critically.

1. & 2. What is the issue and why
The first tick of the dot comes after 3 seconds, making the dot part almost useless, because the tactic can be refreshed while up. If you are criting a target to often, you don't get any damage in.

3. Solution
Add a internal cooldown of 3 seconds, before the tactic can be reaplied. This will let the damage untouched and prevent the tactic from overriding itself.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Kotbs] Biting Blade

Post#2 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:52 pm

Open for discussion. Will be locked in TWO WEEKS from now (25th June).

Seems fairly straightforward - akin to the Guilty Soul tactic WP has, which was changed on RoR.

I can't see why anyone would oppose this. Thoughts?
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dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [Kotbs] Biting Blade [Close Date 25th June]

Post#3 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:18 pm

Alternative idea: Just have the first tick apply immediately and add an ICD if necessary to keep damage in check.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: [Kotbs] Biting Blade [Close Date 25th June]

Post#4 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:38 pm

Not really oposing it, but if you're after the Parry debuff it's actually a nerf as it will be harder to maintain the uptime with a ICD. I think having having first tick happen on proc rather then a 3 sec delay would be better sullution. Personally I think all dots (and hots) in general should be streamlined to happen on hit and not be delayed as it would increase the vallue of dots which atm are quit bad.
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catholicism198
Posts: 1092

Re: [Kotbs] Biting Blade [Close Date 25th June]

Post#5 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:09 pm

roadkillrobin wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:38 pm Not really oposing it, but if you're after the Parry debuff it's actually a nerf as it will be harder to maintain the uptime with a ICD. I think having having first tick happen on proc rather then a 3 sec delay would be better sullution. Personally I think all dots (and hots) in general should be streamlined to happen on hit and not be delayed as it would increase the vallue of dots which atm are quit bad.
The parry debuff/dot both last 10 seconds so it wouldn't be any harder to keep up.
The ICD is to keep the dot from dealing damage every second instead of every 3 seconds.
If the damage is applied on crit:
ICD = 116 damage every 3 seconds ~350dmg in 10 seconds
No ICD = 116 damage every second ~1160dmg in 10 seconds
Of course that's if he crits every second, but you get the idea.

It's not game breaking. 350 dmg over 10 is fluff anyways.

dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [Kotbs] Biting Blade [Close Date 25th June]

Post#6 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:28 pm

Spoiler:
catholicism198 wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:09 pm
roadkillrobin wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:38 pm Not really oposing it, but if you're after the Parry debuff it's actually a nerf as it will be harder to maintain the uptime with a ICD. I think having having first tick happen on proc rather then a 3 sec delay would be better sullution. Personally I think all dots (and hots) in general should be streamlined to happen on hit and not be delayed as it would increase the vallue of dots which atm are quit bad.
The parry debuff/dot both last 10 seconds so it wouldn't be any harder to keep up.
The ICD is to keep the dot from dealing damage every second instead of every 3 seconds.
If the damage is applied on crit:
ICD = 116 damage every 3 seconds ~350dmg in 10 seconds
No ICD = 116 damage every second ~1160dmg in 10 seconds
Of course that's if he crits every second, but you get the idea.

It's not game breaking. 350 dmg over 10 is fluff anyways.
Well, it's not really an ICD, it's a delay in the damage calculation on the dot. Lots of dots don't have an ICD (which controls how often they can be applied to a target), but they do have a delay on their first damage tick. afaik this doesn't have an ICD but its damage doesn't calculate until 3s duration by which point it can be reapplied on top of itself, thus the proposal.

I think applying first damage tick on application is a good "fix" to make it worthwhile; would need to understand the variables before saying whether it needs an ICD or not. Can the tick crit? Does it proc off dots? etc. These will help us understand how much damage increase you can get out of the tactic.
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Foomy44
Posts: 572

Re: [Kotbs] Biting Blade [Close Date 25th June]

Post#7 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:01 pm

dansari wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:28 pm I think applying first damage tick on application is a good "fix" to make it worthwhile; would need to understand the variables before saying whether it needs an ICD or not. Can the tick crit? Does it proc off dots? etc. These will help us understand how much damage increase you can get out of the tactic.
I might be wrong about this but I believe a big part of SM damage/burst is the fact they have a dot tactic that damages instantly when applied with no ICD that can proc off of every blow from their channeled melee attack which hits a lot faster than GCDs. Looks like this could be used the same way which might be a pretty significant boost to their burst/dps, especially since this is procing off crits and it's going to a class on the realm that is capable of debuffing their enemies to have 100% chance to be crit.
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catholicism198
Posts: 1092

Re: [Kotbs] Biting Blade [Close Date 25th June]

Post#8 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:16 pm

You are needlessly complicating things.
He is not suggesting a buff/nerf to the damage but suggesting that it be changed so that it ticks on application instead of 3 seconds after it has been applied. The ICD is to prevent it from dealing more damage than is intended.
What YOU are suggesting is increasing the tactic's damage potential which is NOT the main use of this tactic and is NOT what the op is proposing.
Tactics do flat damage and do not crit. He is not suggesting an overhaul.

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: [Kotbs] Biting Blade [Close Date 25th June]

Post#9 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:14 pm

dansari wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:28 pm
Well, it's not really an ICD, it's a delay in the damage calculation on the dot. Lots of dots don't have an ICD (which controls how often they can be applied to a target), but they do have a delay on their first damage tick. afaik this doesn't have an ICD but its damage doesn't calculate until 3s duration by which point it can be reapplied on top of itself, thus the proposal.

I think applying first damage tick on application is a good "fix" to make it worthwhile; would need to understand the variables before saying whether it needs an ICD or not. Can the tick crit? Does it proc off dots? etc. These will help us understand how much damage increase you can get out of the tactic.
Ask and you shall receive. Yes, the dot does crit. It does not have any modifier to its damage from what I can tell (i didnt test odd things like ballisitic skill). It deals 152 damage 3x, which is higher than tooltip value. Picture evidence of crits:
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Foomy44 wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:01 pm
I might be wrong about this but I believe a big part of SM damage/burst is the fact they have a dot tactic that damages instantly when applied with no ICD that can proc off of every blow from their channeled melee attack which hits a lot faster than GCDs. Looks like this could be used the same way which might be a pretty significant boost to their burst/dps, especially since this is procing off crits and it's going to a class on the realm that is capable of debuffing their enemies to have 100% chance to be crit.
If you are speaking about potent enchantments, yeah its not that good in t4. Encorselled Agony is the dot tactic that khaine SM use and that if guaranteed after using one ability. Main burst comes from spirit damage from a 5hit ability, followed immediately by an auto attack.
Knights aren't walking around with this insane crit rate, nor do they do much damage. Anecdotally, they deal the least damage of all 6 tanks in the game.
If that realm can get you to 100% chance to be critically hit, the knight is in a well-organized group (and cant afford this tactic) and you gear terribly. Also Dansari, see what I mean?
catholicism198 wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:16 pm You are needlessly complicating things.
He is not suggesting a buff/nerf to the damage but suggesting that it be changed so that it ticks on application instead of 3 seconds after it has been applied. The ICD is to prevent it from dealing more damage than is intended.
What YOU are suggesting is increasing the tactic's damage potential which is NOT the main use of this tactic and is NOT what the op is proposing.
Tactics do flat damage and do not crit. He is not suggesting an overhaul.
Just proved you wrong about tactics and critting. Some do, some don't. Sometimes its intentional, sometimes it isnt. Also some tactics actually have modifiers that improce their damage. Case and point Encorselled Agony and Deep Incision are modifiable but potent enchantments is not.

The other side, the main use of this tactic as it stands is to sit on your tactics bench never seeing the light of day because there are way better tactics. Yes, the OP's suggesstion is a QoL improvement on the way the damage works. Doesn't mean that people can't suggest something to be in more line with how other dot tactics work that happens to slightly increase its low damage output.

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catholicism198
Posts: 1092

Re: [Kotbs] Biting Blade [Close Date 25th June]

Post#10 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:36 pm

Lucky you. The ones I've used never crit.

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