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[Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

[Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#1 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:56 pm

After careful consideration based off the feedback given to us by the community, we have decided to go back to the drawing board with our proposal. All feedback has been gathered and examined meticulously, which has resulted in our decision to not implement the proposed changes.

It is likely that a discussion will be opened up sometime in the future pertaining to Grenadier & Changing, and we will welcome your feedback and suggestions there.

We thank you for your involvement.


This proposed change pertains to both the Engineer's Bandolierl tactic, which is located at 11-pts Grenadier, and the Magus's Daemonic Pact tactic, which is located at 11-pts Daemonology. You are cordially invited to give your feedback on these proposed changes, and to share your thoughts.

For information on how to structure your feedback, please refer to this thread prior to giving your feedback. It is imperative that you structure your feedback as per the given structure in the aforementioned link.


It is imperative that you check out Step Two of this thread for rules and guidelines on giving feedback.

CLOSE DATE: 6th OCTOBER



Note: If you do not adhere to the structure that is required, your post will be subject to moderation, and possible deletion (should you continue to do so).



Proposed Changes: Engineer
  • Bandolier's 35% reduced AP costs component remains
  • Bandolier will now also reduce the cooldown of Redeploy by 10 seconds for both the Flamer and Bombardment turrets. This won't apply to Gun turret. Alternatively, Gun turret will no longer be spawnable if this tactic is taken
Proposed Changes: Magus
  • Daemonic Pact's Toughness component remains
  • Daemonic Pact will now also reduce the cooldown of Resummon by 10 seconds for both the Flamer and Blue Horror. This won't apply to Pink Horror. Alternatively, Pink Horror will no longer be spawnable if this tactic is taken
Reasoning behind said changes
  • Grenadier/Changing is a spec that revolves around being mobile, but it is incredibly hard to maintain stacks when you are reliant on Well-oiled machine/Chaotic Attunement alone (which costs a tactic slot). Proposed change aims to help deal with these mobility issues by allowing Resummon & Redeploy to be used more often
  • This change was proposed so that both Grenadier/Changing and Tinkerer/Daemonology engineers/magi (should they choose to waste two tactics for mobility) would be able to maintain stacks more easily while moving around in fast-paced combat
  • One of the reasons why Grenadier Engineers/Changing Magi are criminally underused is that, though they have more mobility than the other two specs on the cover, their damage is largely reliant on two AoE dots and Napalm/Mist, but in fast-paced battles (and a 20 second CD on Redeploy/Resummon) you will find yourself having to recast your pet when this ability is on CD (a lot of the time). Recasting pet = you lose stacks = your damage suffers
  • Restricting the Redeploy/Resummon CD reduction component to the above specs, i.e. out of reach for Havoc and Rifleman, ensures that a Havoc Magus/Rifleman Engineer can not benefit from increased mobility tactics. It is our firm belief that these two specs are stationary long-range RDPS, and must maintain their inherent weakness to a degree (mobility issues)
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#2 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:43 pm

RR 54 magus

Played mostly in sc , always change spec, even in com twice then stopped for obvious reason
Played also a bit of deamonolgy in rvr

I understand the ratio behind the change just not the tactic choose as target. That tactic is extremly out of reach for a change build (for deamonogy ofc not) , still it force to take a tactic that depend on your build choises that in case you could skip if you dont want those 100 pt of extra toughness.

For deamonology/rift builds is mandatory have the ista cast pet tactic (even for engi) because the pet die extremly easy and you need to be fast with rift, a change to resummon wont even be make a difference when the pet is dead or you are forced anyway to take the other tactic (and so you just summon a new one)

So is both out for change builds that rely on undefeatable rend wind and is "borderline" useless for rift spec + force you into a tactic which is custom char dependant and not mandatory to play.

A bettet target for all of this could be ap tactic on right mastery which both engi/magus need to keep up the dot/direct skills spams (lasting chaos for magus) which is a wasted slot for havoc magus.

Edit:
Tough instead rewamp actually cut the summon and the resummon at the core fell like a better option and i dont see it anyway buff the havoc/rifleman

For exemple :

summon cut half your stack
Resummon/redeploy CD lowered to 15 or 10 sec.
Ap cost cutted down to 45 ap and 25 ap.
Last edited by Tesq on Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:12 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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wonshot
Posts: 1101

Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#3 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:04 am

Engineer RR 68, mainly organized warband with the specific role of playmaking, utility, debuffing and controling and coordinating.
I some times take the Engineer for a spin in pug scenarious too as a damagedealer, or duo roam/gank.
I dont play Magus on RoR, so I am ignoring the magus part and am glad to see it already represented.
peterthepan3 wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:56 pm
  • Bandolier's 35% reduced AP costs component remains
  • Bandolier will now also reduce the cooldown of Redeploy by 10 seconds for both the Flamer and Bombardment turrets. This won't apply to Gun turret. Alternatively, Gun turret will no longer be spawnable if this tactic is taken
First off, I like how the problem is being adressed and isolated away from Gunturret and Rifleman spec since those are doing fine. So excluding it from this change is a really smart move, thumbs up :!:

Secondly, I can see why this is proposed but I find it "dangerous" to lock a class mechanic-changer to just one tree, and combine it with being on yet an other tactic slot. I do know that this being suggested to a 9pointer will almost never lock anyone out from not getting what they want in the rest of the mastery tree or 2nd specline. But it is still a limmitatio I think should be carefull thourght about for future changes.

Alllow me to elaborate abit;
Should this change be implimented and Redeply having half the cooldown for spending 9points in the middletree, then you almost garenteed lock those 9points into any Grenadierspec & Tinker spec. Why not have such an almost Mandatory change be built into the turret(s) themself, because as you mention too many tactic slots are then becoming must-haves and filling up half your tactic slots simply to have a working class mechanic half the time you are trying to DPS in the open, and that feels as an other core issue for the Engineer how much class-mechanic is built into the tactics already. As you mention further down, and I think the reasoning and analysys is spot on! Mobility and keeping the Turret-stacks up are a very difficult task to execute in fast pased gameplay.

peterthepan3 wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:56 pm
  • Grenadier/Changing is a spec that revolves around being mobile, but it is incredibly hard to maintain stacks when you are reliant on Well-oiled machine/Chaotic Attunement alone (which costs a tactic slot). Proposed change aims to help deal with these mobility issues by allowing Resummon & Redeploy to be used more often
  • This change was proposed so that both Grenadier/Changing and Tinkerer/Daemonology engineers/magi (should they choose to waste two tactics for mobility) would be able to maintain stacks more easily while moving around in fast-paced combat
  • One of the reasons why Grenadier Engineers/Changing Magi are criminally underused is that, though they have more mobility than the other two specs on the cover, their damage is largely reliant on two AoE dots and Napalm/Mist, but in fast-paced battles (and a 20 second CD on Redeploy/Resummon) you will find yourself having to recast your pet when this ability is on CD (a lot of the time). Recasting pet = you lose stacks = your damage suffers
Suggestion-A
Slap this redeploy change onto "Well Oiled Machine" tactic. if you acknowledge that Engineer have need of more of 4 current tactics to work for Granedier/Tinker spec(merge some of them who seem mandatory). If you only slightly agree atleast add it to the "Reinforced Casing" tactic that way the turrets will also stay alive longer in open fights, and it tematicly makes some sence but still dosnt change the fact that engineer needs too many tactics to be used in the open field.

Suggestion-B
would be to put it into the Flameturret or Bombardment turret, or as the poster above me suggested into the AP tactic from Right masterytree. But I cant help feeling like we dont see the entire vision here, of what you want to do with the class


Grenadier mastery spec is, imo, simply too cooldown reliant on Napalm cooldown to have the burst or consistant presure you want a spec to bring while fighting in the open field largescale fights. Not to mention how every Ability in that tree is 20feet wide as I personally have as the biggest turn-off from the spec and why I will always look towards Tinker with its 45feetBlunderbuster instead, but I guess that is an whole other topic so ignore this if you already have plans for Tinker spec down the line. Maybe adress what playstyle you want out of this mastery spec, is it supposed to be:

Rifleman - Immobile longrange burst
Grenadier - Semi mobile short radius aoe with long cooldown bursts
Tinker - Mobile utility/damage wide aoe consistant damage

It feels like Grenadier and Tinker right now bring alot of different stuff, but you cant have it all (tactic slots) and none of it is good enough to be worth a warband slot on its on. I guess the "Jack of all trades but master of none" goes well for to describe these masteries.
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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#4 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:07 pm

RR64 magus, rvr- solo or in pug wbs, lately leading pug wbs as well, no scs.

I'm specced daemonology/change, so CA tactic is glued in. The extra mobility will help- even with CA in, all too many times- in wb vs wb situations especially- I don't have time to build any stacks before I have to move out of pet range. Even with this change, CA will still stay in.

However:
Alternatively, Pink Horror will no longer be spawnable if this tactic is taken
This will be a major nerf to daemonology spec, since this tactic is essential for daemonology builds, as such it will result in daemonology specced magus being permanently locked out of pink daemon range buff. Which is often needed- during sieges for example.
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Glorian
Posts: 4976

Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#5 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:34 am

1. Do you play the class in question?
Yes. Tinkerer RR1-60
Rifleman RR60-80

2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?
No Magus. Only low lvl experience T1 Experience

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?

Running Dwarf Warbands for 3 years now on RoR. Heavy use of Engineers in general. Fighting as an Engi on premade Order Warbands.

4. Your feedback
I'm not really thrilled by the proposal.
If you are an grenadier you usually run Well oiled machine on mandatory. You are a fast mover and not a stand and pull engi (Tinkerer) or a hang back and snipe engi (Riflemen).
Also if you are using too much AP then you ask your Runepriest to use the AP Masterrune, which is these days the standard mastery rune on every Runi, or you use the Clever Recovery core tactic.
Then you have one more mastery point to get something better on left or right tree.
Or you take Extra Ammo from the Tinkerer tree.

I can see that with Well oiled machine and a reworked Bandolier you could move all the time and keep the turret on your position. Meaning to hold up the 8 stacks. But for that you need to use 2 Tactic slots on an already hard fought 4 tactic slot places.

Ofc I could be wrong as I play heavy on Rifleman and Tinkerer. Although both AP Tactics Bandolier and Quick Reloader are imo hardly used these days on RoR.

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Nidwin
Posts: 662

Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#6 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:19 am

1. Do you play the class in question?
Yes. MAgus

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?
My main(s) is a Magus

4. Your feedback
I don't see how this is going to help Path of Changing to be honnest.
And why would you exclude the pink horror, especially for Path of Changing?

About excluding pink horror.
I take the range from the pink horror over anything that the flamer or blue horror have to offer in most situations for Nidwinpp (my changing Magus).
On the field it's actually
Range > mobility for Path of Changing
Glean Magic full time debuff > flamer dot duration reduction
Actual resummon manageable to keep 4+ stacks up with the extra range from pink horror in mobile fights.
Elemental debuff from pink horror for a Path of Havoc core abilities distant finishing combo. (e.g. FRF + Rend Winds + SVF)

I also don't see why or even how a Path of Changing Magus would or would be able to spec for the toughness tactic. It's too expensive mastery points wise for too little gain.
Changing being the mid ranged aoe tree, my opinion for me, I'm better off to take Fiery Winds + Flame's Kiss/Surging Power tactics once able to get rid of Endless Knowledge.

The three reasons I can think of why Path of Changing may be underused are
1. The tree is under valued
2. It's probably the more tricky tree of the three and it takes a bit of time and dedication to make it work.
3. It's clearly not the most efficient tree for pugging scenarios.
Nidwinqq used teabag Magus [Hysteria]

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wonshot
Posts: 1101

Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#7 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:56 am

Spoiler:
rr 69 Engineer, warband player and mindset

With all of this talk about tactics, and with the previous attempted version of Guardian WL having a 5th tactic slot. Would it be too overpowered and overtuned if Pet-related tactics could be changed to reknown tactics. Im thinking about Well-oiled machine here, that way close-to-mandatory tactics would no longer fill up every tactic page, and instead difference variations could see the light of day and give a better impression of what is working and what might need tweaking.

An arguement against this could ofc be that instead mandatory pet tactics should just be merged into the pets whenever summoned, since this would give counterplay towards 5th tactic advantage could be killed by killing said pet.
Feedback has been noted, but next time please amend your first post instead of making a new one. - PTP3
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catholicism198
Posts: 1092

Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#8 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:50 pm

6x magus, everything

Terrible idea. Terrible.
The issue with a magus' mobility has never been that it can't re summon its daemon, it's that it has to idle about for ~20+? seconds for it to do decent damage.

All this does is gimp the survivability for havoc.
Spoiler:
Whether or not you guys (as a whole) take the opinions of the masses into consideration is yet to be seen. So I'll keep things brief and to the point.
User warned for nonconstructive dig at the end of feedback. Could also do with toning down the emotive language and, instead, offer more of a rebuttal to the proposed suggestions (worth taking into account that they aren't set in stone; we want your ideas/thoughts on how to improve upon these suggestions - not the digs). - PTP3

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Darks63
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Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#9 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:48 am

Got 40/40+ magus and engineer and had higher rr of both on live.

All this proposal does is force a tactic starved architype to be more so than ever while still tying it to mechanic which forces it out of the mobility meta. Also lowering the CD of Resummon/Redeploy doesn't address that the ability itself costs 50 ap and since it is core the ap reduction wont affect that.

Also locking out the Gun/Pink removes an option for people to boost their range in certain circumstances.

A few side questions if you will: Why continue to try to expand on the bandaid solution that the pet buff was on live? why not scrap them entirely and try to come up with a mechanic that actually works?
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dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [Proposed Changes] ENG/Magus| Bandolier & Daemonic Pact

Post#10 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:16 am

Spoiler:
Darks63 wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:48 am Got 40/40+ magus and engineer and had higher rr of both on live.

All this proposal does is force a tactic starved architype to be more so than ever while still tying it to mechanic which forces it out of the mobility meta. Also lowering the CD of Resummon/Redeploy doesn't address that the ability itself costs 50 ap and since it is core the ap reduction wont affect that.

Also locking out the Gun/Pink removes an option for people to boost their range in certain circumstances.

A few side questions if you will: Why continue to try to expand on the bandaid solution that the pet buff was on live? why not scrap them entirely and try to come up with a mechanic that actually works?
What would you suggest for a mechanic that works?
I'm dumb. Forgot where I was posting.
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