[Rejected] Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

[Azarael]

Flames of Fate / Ensnare are Morale 1, 65ft range, 75% of Sever Nerve damage, instant 10s roots which do not break on damage, hosted by MDPS classes.

I'm interested in hearing about how these abilities are of appropriate strength for M1 and why it is absolutely necessary that they should not break on damage at all, in the context of the two classes that host them. Consider that I believe the most appropriate change for these abilities is that they break after the target has received in the region of 1k-2k damage while under their effect, and that in general, I would like to see break chances for roots changed to a consistent threshold-type break.

[noisestorm]

Not exactly what you ask here for, but from what i've seen in some older Videos (patch 1.4.0) it was a 5 second root back then when it was (seemingly) unbreakable. Unfortunately i couldnt find a video where a Marauder used a 10 second FoF in newer videos since they for 'some' reason most of the time had their Parry M1 in the majority of videos, or rather used their M2.

Regarding the break-mechanic of roots in general imo the best solution would be having the %chance converted into absolute stacks. So a 50% break chance becomes 2x on-hit, a 25% break becomes 3x on-hit before breaking. Having a DMG threshhold of lets say 1-2k like you say, would be broken with the first Fireball, WoP, Guillotine or the likes and will maybe have some scaling issues in later stages of the game, while having stacks remains constant.

Personal opinion about FoF & Ensnare:There is simply no justification for how it currently is.Just compare it to C'C of the Tanks and you see that it is superior in literally everything. Range, Dmg as well as being able to freely move is just ridiculous. I heard some people (especially Wingz) complaining about l2p and that there actually is counterplay to those skills, but just because there is counterplay does *not* imply that the scale of play/counterplay is even balanced. I see absolutely no justification in being forced to sit on someones M2 (Focused Mind for example) just for the case in that some WL/Mara decides to throw an unbreakable root on you and you have to be aware of that possibility at all times and simply keep your only tool for escape for that case. Thats definitely not how this M2 was thought to be used (Especially not since the M2 is historically older than FoF in the first place). If you ask me this is clearly not an l2p issue like it was already proclaimed, when an inferior skill (rather morale in this case) forces you to keep some superior Skill/higher Morale back up your sleeve at all given times just for the special case when this inferior M1 gets thrown on you.
That really isnt an argument i wanna see here, which i basically did see in the patchnotes though.


PS: Some sidenotes: FoF was implemented in 1.3.2 as an instant damage and snaring tool, Ensnare (existed already and) got bugfixed back then to be cleansable by Antiroot skills since it apparantly was completely unbreakable back then. In 1.4.0 its duration was still 5 seconds . Somewhere after that it apparantly got increased to 10 seconds, but i highly doubt they let it be unbreakable by damage back then on top of doubling its duration. Also dont forget that people had access to Hardy Concessions and Trivial Blows, making people a LOT more durable and more likely to survive.

[georgehabadasher]

They used to be a lot shorter, but then Mythic decided to standardize all CC in 1.4.7. So in addition to the farcically long Mara/WL root we got WE/WH/Slayer/other mdps knockdowns going from 2 to 3 seconds, and the WH/WE self punt stagger increased to 6 seconds.

Obviously, that change made them insanely overpowered. However, I think leaving morale roots as unbreakable and just lowering the duration back to something reasonable is a better solution.

[zumos2]

What makes this and many balance discussions hard are the different scales that you want the game to be balanced on. I will start from a 6v6 PoV, then continue to 12v12 and large scale.

For the 6v6 I believe the root effect not breaking on damage is fine because there is enough counterplay on this small scale. You obviously want to catch a squishy target in the backline with this scale. Most healers and rdps have the option to break the root with Focused Mind (FM). Generally if the enemy only has 1 Marauder/WL they will have FM available every time needed or they have to play safe for a short period of time while the Mara/WL have their M1 available but they don’t have their FM. If you mess this up once, many also run Resolute Defense to break it in the worst case. Also if you actually get catched, an instant AoE stagger from KoBS/Chosen (or possibly Magus/Engie ) can waste the enemies time for so long they might only reach you before the root ends. So for me the root itself in the 6v6 scenario isn’t that OP. What I do agree with though is the fact that it also deals 900 damage makes it not just a strong root, but a very versatile skill. When you catch someone with range, the 900 damage doesn’t mean that much, but it does allow morale dumps, next to being a very strong root. That is why I would propose to remove the damage from the M1 root, but keep the way the root works (again from 6v6 PoV).

In 12v12 scenarios the M1 root is really really strong. While most ranged can still use FM to get out of it, you get punished a lot harder when you cannot. Also there is obviously more to look for when there is more players, so the chance that you get rooted before you get FM is larger (you could argue that is just a l2p issue) Anyway, the moment you get rooted and cannot break it, having 12 people jump on your is obviously way more punishing than in a 6v6 scenario. Also the counterplay of AoE CC is less reliable when there are more players. All in all the root just becomes stronger with more numbers. The point of also dealing damage next to a really strong root still stands here as well. For 12v12 the root really lies on the edge of being too strong, or even a little bit over it. The fact that it also allows morale dumps, does bring it over the top. So for 12v12 scenario, I would propose to at least remove the damage from the skill.

For large scale the first thing we have to tank into account that WL is obviously totally **** for large scale. Marauder has some nice utility, maybe allowing one marauder in a well-organized warband. For this scale, the 900 single target damage is quite insignificant. Catching one person out with the morale isn’t game breaking either if you are fighting large numbers yourself. Also all melee can use their break mechanic if needed to counter it. For large scale I would propose no changes to the M1 at all.
All together it is a tough balancing act and it somewhat depends on what you think is important to the game. Because 6v6 and warband play require very different builds I think it is in general possible to balance these both together. But 6v6 and 12v12 builds are generally almost the same, making balancing these little things quite hard. From my own perspective I would choose for the damage to be removed, but let the root stay as it is. But I can totally understand the perspective of those who are not into the 6v6 scene, but do like to do scenarios.

I also want to give my opinion on the proposition of changing roots that are chance based to break after an X amount of damage:
“Consider that I believe the most appropriate change for these abilities is that they break after the target has received in the region of 1k-2k damage while under their effect, and that in general, I would like to see break chances for roots changed to a consistent threshold-type break.”

From my personal experience I never felt like the chance based system is very game-breaking. That said I’m definitely not against moving away from an RNG system. What I would like to see though instead of the breaking of the root being dependent on damage, make it break after an Y amount of hits instead of X amount of damage. In the case of using damage, tanks and other low dps classes don’t really have to think about breaking the root, but damage dealers will break it very quickly. I think it will increase skill more if tanks maybe don’t want to hit because they will break it and let the dps hammer away for time they can. Obviously the amount of hits shouldn’t be too high, or else these roots become too strong, but that should be balanceable.

[Tesq]

Well:
- it's a moral 1
-it's ST
- it can be used at 65" range instead of melee
- it does 75% of damages of serve nerve

The question is : are the difference in damages with serve nerves cover by what this morales gain or it's too much?

the difference with serve nerve are 2:

-65 fett range
-and 10 sec + unbreakable "root"

Let's start with the second one:

1) the duration it's too much, as @George said 1.4.7 messed a lot of stuff.
They timer it's too long, the trade off i suppose should be is " i root you for few for the chance to be able to do something wasting a morale 1 with the risk of you use any cc remove". Which any class have.

2) the range is complementary to the duration it allow the root to be effective but to not be overpowered if used in melee exemple--> 10 sec but melee would be a lot better than champion challenge ( which is ever worst now due even being 65 feet range).
Why it is complementary then? because snares in game have no immunity. If it last so few and cannot be 10 sec or be overpowered the band aid to make it work it's the 65"range.

so the range of 65 feet it's complementary to a low duration which currently those morales x 1.4.7 patch do not have anymore

3) unbreakable, i think this is a development choice regarding the uniformity of the cc in game; you can decide the uniformity of all root must be breakable or take that decision only for aoe roots which would cover also kobs no escape M3. That way champion challenge and these 2 morales would be both unbreakable. And would both have their trade off--> i have to tell that st root unbreakable and aoe breakable seems better due to how champion challange is implemented thus these 2 would be somewhere in between of CC and serve nerve.

CC: 10 sec but tank cannot move, range-> melee, cant be removed
FoF/Ensare: 5 sec , you can move, range->65 feets, can be removed

so the point would be test it again with a 5 sec duration and then theorycraft the damage: for exemple chosen offensive moral 1 does 600 ista damages+ restore all ap.

So the balance of these 2 morales with m1 that:
- do only ista damage or
- do damages + effect

is off due the duration of the root (10 instead 5 sec) and ammount of damages it does (900, it should be probable 600 due the big effect it does).
What instead seems fine are A) be unbreakable B) have range.

Make it 10 sec unbreakable in melee is unbalanced with CC regard the trade off
Make it 10 sec breackable + range it' accettable due mara/wl not being blocked as in CC
Damage still too high anyway.
Best would be it stii remain unbreakablw but it last only 5 sec

[zumos2]

Personal opinion about FoF & Ensnare:There is simply no justification for how it currently is.Just compare it to C'C of the Tanks and you see that it is superior in literally everything. Range, Dmg as well as being able to freely move is just ridiculous.

I do want to explain that this is not completely true. I much rather have Champions Challenge on a target than Ensnare/FoF because you cannot break it with FM or the cc breaks of tanks/mdps. That alone makes Champions Challenge equally good, if not even better. Obviously the range of the Ensnare/FoF makes it unique to catch targets, but there are many ways to deal with it, at least in coordinated 6v6. For my opinion on the damage etc, see my post.

[Luth]

I'm posting the pre-patch values because i didn't see anyone posting them so far:
Ensare 5 second duration
Flames of Fate was a self heal (they had no morale root before that ridiculous patch)

[Mozlei]

Personally I think roots in general could do with a bit of an overhaul. Having played SM recently on RoR and a limited amount of BO on live, having their aoe roots break on random splash damage from ID, magus/eng dots, SH/SW aoe etc etc makes them pretty underwhelming and a waste of an immunity which would be better spent on a knock back or pull. As I've seen floated recently, these may be better breaking on a fixed amount of damage - for example (numbers pulled out of the sky here, people in control of balance would have a much better idea of actual figures)

Standard roots (non morale) - current durations, break after 500 damage (thinking SM/BO in particular but would also need to be balanced for BW/sorc too)
M1 roots - keep current ranges but damage reduced to 600, 5 sec duration and break on 1000 damage
M3 root (kotbs, forget if there are others) - damage reduced to 600 (as undefendable and AoE), same duration but break on 2000 damage

I feel like this
1. increases the viability and reliability of standard roots without being a waste of an immunity
2. still gives mara/WL the chance to catch and further cc their target
3. Maintains the viability of no escape in larger scale combat without guarenteeing squishy classes will be rolled over instantly

As said, damage values and durations largely plucked from the sky. Personally I never felt the need to use ensnare on my WL on live as I've always felt confusing movements was a crucial panic button.

[TenTonHammer]

I'm posting the pre-patch values because i didn't see anyone posting them so far:
Ensare 5 second duration
Flames of Fate was a self heal (they had no morale root before that ridiculous patch)

If FoF was a heal, then whats the point of Tzeetch’s reversal?

[sanii]

I'm posting the pre-patch values because i didn't see anyone posting them so far:
Ensare 5 second duration
Flames of Fate was a self heal (they had no morale root before that ridiculous patch)

If FoF was a heal, then whats the point of Tzeetch’s reversal?

You can apply the 'what's the point of A if B exists' logic to half a dozen skills in warhammer , as for your specific example it used to be a flat heal (1200) whereas reversal is a heal(1200) AND a damaging ability (1200)