Recent Topics

Ads

[Rejected] Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
User avatar
Jaycub
Posts: 3130

Re: Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

Post#81 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:45 pm

With morale pumps on destro tanks, aren't they getting their M3 around the same time a WL would be getting M1?

Constant combat also means that with 60 sec cd after the initial fighting sorc will have m2 to answer WL m1 every time unless there is a reset.

While not all RDPS have morale pump, both sorc and BW have access to one that would also guarantee their m2 before WL has M1.


Which may be the reason for some of the specific proc setups we see on destro with sorc/magus/mara, magus is able to stay completely out of range and remove itself as a possible target, guarded mara is one of the hardest DPS to kill and brings the needed utility, and sorc running morale pump has quick M2 for escape. This forces a team to have to deal with the mara? Pretty much all riding on tankplay on both sides with punts being the key to success.

Edit: not so much trying to argue that it's not cheesy a lot of the counter play to an M1 is m3/4's. just that there are ways to sort of bridge the gap between them via tactics which are already very good/meta and not exactly something you run just to counter ensnare/FoF. Though the problem is still its exclusive to realms/classes.
<Lords of the Locker Room> <Old School>

Ads
navis
Posts: 783

Re: Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

Post#82 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:18 pm

Just a final word from me regarding my thoughts here..
To those who argue they need the range because the class needs it - because good SW or any class with rKD or range disrupt can easily counter the TE pull - so what if those range can kite you competently, once they finally are in range the melee's have their advantage coming with two hand builds + procs from group mates. 3 Melee in range of just about any non-tank will be dead in like 3 seconds anyway just because the sheer amount of damage put out in a very short time..
(I am for nerf range distance + keep all else same)

a slow effect could also work

thx
Image

Kopfmotorrad
Posts: 35

Re: Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

Post#83 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:42 pm

I think both normal roots and Moral roots should break on a certain damage barrier making without decreasing the timers.
No need to change the timers if the root breaks on damage.

The damage barrier should be high enough to still stand against some random DoT damage or AoE damage flying around so it remains an ablitity that is worthwhile to use, but it should not be too high to get people killed 1 second after the root breaks.
Somewhere around 1000 is probably ok.

The most annoying root in the game is the KotBS Moral 3 AoE Root. As every KotBS should use the moral tactic his moral 3 can be up as fast as WL/marauder Moral 1. A whole group can get caught in the M3 root and then a zerg slowly pushes over them like an amoebe. Thats one reason for a root breaking after a damage barrier :))

User avatar
dur3al
Posts: 251

Re: Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

Post#84 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:57 pm

noisestorm wrote:Which is a horrible example just so you know.In the first M1 root scenario the white lions pet was already killed (greatly reducing all of its damage) and there was also a tank m3 used for the enemies as well. The next time he got rooted he insta popped his M2 as well as a tank M4. The third time he eats Ensnare he also uses M2 again, simply to counter it. Not sure what you were trying to achieve with telling me to watch this, but it basically proves exactly what was already said: You need to use superior morales in order to counter the M1, which is exactly what makes this M1 too strong :roll:
God forbid they actually play smart killing pets and using morals to help their group-mates right? For every single M1, he had FM ready, and if he had used it to burst someone then they'd be 1 mdps down which is totally worth the trade. Before RP crashed they got the kill but couldn't capitalize on it (interrupting rezzes and killing healers) while LoB did, but it was a close fight nonetheless in a 6v6 where both teams are comited to the fight, now imagine if it was a scenario, Sekundus could've just kited to warcamp no problem, same for orvr etc.

If anything, the real factor that made Sekundus die was Wings of Heaven, which BTW is a M2 that gives a tank a freaking pounce and aoe 60% snare, guess which side ONLY has this moral on top of pounce from WL? And now they even have a KD too! I'd hit that with a gigantic nerf-bat way before doing any chances in mara/WL m1.
Martyr's Square: Sync & Nerfedbuttons - enigma
Martyr's Square: Dureal & Method - Disrespect/It's Orz again
Badlands: Dureal & Alatheus - Exo
Karak-Norn: Sejanus - Blitz/Elementz

User avatar
Danielle
Posts: 206

Re: Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

Post#85 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:27 am

noisestorm wrote:People also seem to forget that the sole purpose of a Ranged group is to - in fact - keep distance. The whole idea of making a ranged group is to simply not get into melee range. You can also always run a range/hybrid group yourself and do the same to counter other ranged groups if you like to, but you are supposed to have a hard time dealing with ranged groups with only melees. Also from some posts i basically gather that a you can literally forfeit in the first place with a Choppa+WE (or double Choppa) setup if you encounter a ranged group on the other side, simply "because you cannot catch the kiters and there is no counterplay to endless kiting besides m1 root", which is simply not true. Be it charge, stealth, some form of ranged CC or simply using Resolute Defense yourself as melee will give plenty of opportunites to get into range. The m1 root as it currently exists though is in many situations a guarnteed kill. Yes sure you can come with the arguments of "But your tank can stagger and kick enemies chasing you" , but you now please tell me what exactly prevents the tank of the Melee group to not just do the same to their tank? Also i will repeat it again that a lot of people reduce Focused Minds single use to being the root-breaker for said M1. But dont you ignore the fact, that you maybe could eat a 7 second range Silence for example? Or that someone gets hardcore focused and you maybe need to burn m2 to (rezz+)fastheal in order to keep him up. Or that you maybe need to burst damage someone down and need the extra damage BEFORE you get rooted? Sure you have the possiblity of the 10 second profit after using it as a root break, but you cannot expect to a) have the freetime to do so, since you may be already pressured if the m1 got dropped on you in the first place and b) there may be nothing to do with the buff for the moment - in other words noone gets significant damage at the time given (as healer) , or the enemies run a tank m4 for example and youre better off saving your APs..

Like Peter already said, there are many ways to catch kiters/rangers without needing a ridiculous m1 root. Potentially you could add Shaman/AM snarepit to his list and something people also seem to forget - Terrain. Terrain may be very situational, but in the majority of situations you have some sort of rocks,trees,or buildings to negate a huge amount of ranged pressure.

I know this is quite a bit offtopic, but i feel some people discussing stuff always blatantly ignore some things and i just wanted to point that out.
This isn't offtopic, imo it's the most important part of the topic and the reason why people are defending this morale at all. Shaman and AM snares are available to both kite groups and melee groups - so they are not really an argument either for or against, as they help to both keep distance and close it. SH and SW have ranged snares, melee characters don't have ranged snares, some tanks have ranged snares, but not with the same range that ranged characters do. Without morales or zealot/rp stagger a melee group never catches a good ranged group, unless as you pointed out that group hits a wall. As I said before in this thread, charging+snare immunity/resolute defense or pounce are not the answer in organized play, because tanks cannot do the same. MDPS gets out of guard range = dead MDPS against a good ranged group. The argument that a melee group shouldn't be good against a ranged group (should have a hard time) in the first place is (I think) a bad argument. What should be good against a ranged group then? Another ranged group? Hybrid groups are in my experience are even worse than full melee groups against full ranged groups, because the ranged group can take advantage of the tank splitting away from their RDPS in a hybrid group. I mean I just don't follow sorry, I simply believe melee and ranged groups should have equal chances against each other and then those chances vary depending on the specific group compositions they are using.

Yes, the point of a ranged group and ranged characters in general is to keep distance. Even with this morale in the game as it is, ranged keep their distance most of the time. That however, shouldn't mean the enemy can't hit them without dying. I suspect the real issue here is that once a ranged character gets 'trapped' by the M1/Champion's Challenge, they melt in a morale dump and burst with armour and wounds debuff in a manner of seconds. That however, is an issue with those overpowered wounds and armour debuffs, morale damage and current hp pools, armour and gear, but also with the way people build their ranged characters. It is however not an issue with the morale 1 which means the character gets caught in the first place. The morale 1 actually fulfills it's purpose perfectly. Ranged group are allowed to kite but every now and again the melee groups gets a chance, a window to kill one of their characters. There offensive co-ordination and defensive play come up against each other and either the melee group can net a kill or the ranged composition succesfully defends and they are free to kite the melee group for another minute before another guaranteed attempt. The morale fulfills it's purpose. It's the rest of the WL/Mara arsenal that is broken and needs addressing. Sure, I can agree that the morale offers too much for a simple morale 1, and that perhaps it shouldn't deal that much damage, however I would argue the root component is important for the game and doesn't need anything else than a slight duration decrease.
Spoiler:
Raging Slayer overextender and Healbot of Deep and Dry and Dark Omen
All my Order characters
All my Destro characters
Yes, you are welcome to this hitlist. I REALLY enjoy being chased across a whole zone.

User avatar
Lindisfarne
Posts: 357
Contact:

Re: Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

Post#86 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:16 am

I feel like this morale root in no way is over powered. Yes i have a marauder that i barely play because im always healing, but in the current game state, i believe that RDPS is overpowered (especially after this engineer buff). I personally think that melee should have the largest damage output in the game, not the other way around as it currently is. RDPS just sits back and fires away melting everything, meanwhile, mdps have to slog through all the CC's, ranged KD, snares, while getting **** on from a great height. Also, melee require a guard to last long enough to get anywhere near RDPS.

TLDR Warhammer age of RDPS
free typi
Lindisfarne Massacre--Northernrage--Pagans Mind--Dio

bloodi
Suspended
Posts: 1725

Re: Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

Post#87 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:43 pm

If ranged groups should not be able to kite forever and should be forced into melee range, i guess we will also remove pushback on cast bars and grant every ranged the ability to do full damage while moving just like melee have?

Ranged groups are forced to kite, once they are in meele range, they are forced to get out of it to do full damage, in most cases (Sh/Sw being maybe the lesser affected of them) a ranged char will lose half the damage when forced into melee range.

Because, what is the point of playing ranged when you are foced to play in melee and thus, have your damage and advantages removed? May as well play melee and be done with it.

If the idea here is that ranged should not be able to kite melee groups forever and be forced to pop out major morales to get into an advantegous position again while melee groups with WL/marauder should just be able to use m1 and train people, i just dont really see the point of playing ranged, the advantage they have is removed and they have now to play in a situation where they are subpar.

I understand people who dont find fun when they are kited ad naeseaum, i hope they also understand the problem that comes when ranged groups are just unable to get into their optimal range and they are subpar at melee ranges.

User avatar
hulkhug
Posts: 95

Re: Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

Post#88 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:54 am

Marauder has a pull, front cone knockdown, charge, flee+ap pot and on top of that cheap Morale that immobilizes in one spot for a long long time.

All this about ranged classes kiting forever only happens when you go against SW and SH (SH takes 1st place big time) and even then some classes have a lot of tools to get to them like Marauder, chosen with range stagger, zealot with stagger, shaman with puddle and the list goes on.

We all know this morale is pardon my language pure bullshit as it is a free renown button.

Some things in this game make no sense like 7 sec magic immunity on WE/WH, SH damage+escape options and durability, Range morale 1 root. I am going off topic so back I go.

This morale should be changed to a previous version which was self heal or completely removed like kotbs tactic was removed (that tactis was bs as well). I played marauder back on live and class on its own is op as hell so I don`t know why his kit has to be even stronger than it already is.
Characters: Gladius (RP), Naulin (AM), Beardicus (WP), Hive (BG)
Guild: The Unlikely Plan / TUP

Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/phyrexianhulk

Ads
Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

Post#89 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:53 pm

It's been 2 weeks since this thread was created. Time to lock it and wait for Aza's conclusions.

User avatar
Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Flames of Fate, Ensnare (break mechanics)

Post#90 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:14 pm

I am unwilling to perform any adjustment to these morales before seeing the results of a more reliable back snare for WE/WH, in light of the concerns raised in this topic about relative power between MDPS and RDPS. These morales will not change - for now.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests