[Rejected] Path of Stabbin' / Squig Armour Proposal

[Danielle]

Pounce with Bad Gas on the same class sounds like something that could be potentially game breaking for overall large scale RvR balance. The reason slayers/squigs aren't completely ridiculous with these abilities is because they have to push through the other team to drop it on healers, with pounce that is no longer a limitation. What makes it worse is that unlike DoKs, WPs cannot cleanse ailments, and cannot AoE cleanse ailments. That means that a bad gas drop = 1 group heal for 5s = dead warband in RvR very likely. So even a suicidal jump that has 16s cd with Bad Gas could be destructive.

[footpatrol2]

By the way I love this proposal but I think it needs tweaks. We actually use Stabby spec in our premade groups quite a bit and sometimes we are bringing 2 stabby spec's in a 6+ situation. We can field a lot of 9 man's. So we cycle bad gas like others cycle shatter limbs. Stabby spec is not a joke, it is completely under-estimated. But the spec is clunky and does need fixes thou.

Path of Stabbin' Treatment.

I propose -

- Moving Bad Gas and Big Bouncing to core abilities, unlocked at appropriate levels
I would be hesitant to remove Bad Gas from the tree that is 9 point spec specific ability. Bad gas is incredibly strong. I don't care about the damage I care about the effect. It could hit for 1 damage point as long as the effect gets out there. I think the community is under-estimating how powerful bad gas is. Bad Gas is Too good to not be a spec specific ability.

Big Bouncin is also a super solid ability, but I could see Big Bouncin moved to a core ability.

- Change Bad Gas to be usable only within Squig Armour
Completely agree with this

- Place new ability Pounce at 9 points Path of Stabbin' (Squig Armour only)
I'll discuss this below

- Place new ability Charge! at 13 points Path of Stabbin' (Squig Armour only)
I'll discuss this below

- The ability to use CORE Quick Shootin' abilities within the Squig Armour though this will be coupled to an inherant -range debuff of being inside a smelly squig, minimally -50%, potentially more.
I like this a lot, but I feel like it should probably require a tactic slot. Maybe not thou. Maybe make 'Ere squiggy' a core base tactic and in its place a new tactic with this in mind. This feels like mirror pushing. I know what the video shows. I don't think this would cause major balance issue's thou.

- The ability to remain within the Squig Armour and use it as a mount
It always should have been like this. I LOVE this.
New Ability Descriptions -





Reasoning -

Proposed changes would increase the viability and attractiveness of what is currently a joke tree, the pounce allows them to get into the fight without the cheese of current pounce spam, charge as well though that can also be used as an extraction ability for getting away from a bad situation. Core Quick Shootin' attacks at a much reduced range while within Squig Armour would flesh out attack chains and allow some level of versatility.

Thematically it all fits together nicely as well in my opinion.

I like the idea of very minor changes that don't have to require a lot to be done to make a big impact. With that said I'll continue.

New Charge ability
Ok so the class kinda doesn't need a charge ability. We have one basically already. Its called Run Away ability in the quick shootin line although Run Away ability can't be used in Squig armor. Just make Run Away ability able to be used in squig armor. Does the class really need a speed tactic, Run Away ability AND a Charge? I'm all for buffing this spec but I think this is a little too much. Maybe having SH stabbies as speed freaks is a good thing. I dunno could be fun.

If you just changed the Run Away ability to be able to be used in squig armor I think the charge ability is unnecessary. The Run Away ability will now serve two purposes. It is also an Ideal pick up for a full 15 point stabby spec in their off-spec. I think its a safer option thou to make Run Away ability able to be used in squig armor. I'm aiming for the least amount of change needed to buff the class and not overdue it.

If you really want to add in a charge ability I'd make it a Base ability to the SH but only usable in squig armor like what torquemadre proposed.

New Pounce ability.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY like the idea of pounce on the stabby SH. It fits thematically very well. But I REALLY REALLY REALLY hate Mirror pushing. I think it tears away the uniqueness of classes which i really like about this game. That said... I am conflicted on this. I am literally 50% for this and 50% against this. I assume the range on the picture is a typo 167 foot range is outrageous.

Proposed modifications to Torquemadre's proposal
Keep bad gas as a 9 point spec specific ability. Its really dirty dirty good. If we change this there will be endless cry's from order's side on this. I can already see the tears.

Don't put in a charge ability but change the Run Away ability in quick shootin line to be able to be used in squig armor also.

Make torquemadre's pounce ability a 13 point ability instead of 9 point. I like that the SH pounce would have a cooldown and the WL would not. This still keeps the classes unique. I like the idea of SH pounce being really high in the tree as you have to really commit to the spec. WL's still get their pounce low in their tree. SH's get their pounce high in their tree. This I feel keeps the classes unique from each other and isn't HARD mirror pushing.

Keep everything else Torquemadre said.

My proposal's
Make Cut ya! able to be used in squig armor.
Make Don't Hit me! (the interrupt that no one uses in the stabby line) able to be used in squig armor.

The recent change to Kaboom I feel was unneeded.
Make Kaboom! return as a very short distance self punt like how it was just keep the height reduced as it currently is to avoid exploits. This helps the SH get over 2nd story fences in like praag and what-not which is what I think the small short distance self punt was for.

[roadkillrobin]

Pounce with Bad Gas on the same class sounds like something that could be potentially game breaking for overall large scale RvR balance. The reason slayers/squigs aren't completely ridiculous with these abilities is because they have to push through the other team to drop it on healers, with pounce that is no longer a limitation. What makes it worse is that unlike DoKs, WPs cannot cleanse ailments, and cannot AoE cleanse ailments. That means that a bad gas drop = 1 group heal for 5s = dead warband in RvR very likely. So even a suicidal jump that has 16s cd with Bad Gas could be destructive.

The thing is SH can allready do this at 30feet range while Snaring the frontline, So effectivly it's just a 35feet boost to the jump with the loss of the Snare. (Turn your back to the enemy and press Sticky Squigs is how you do it btw)
Also comparing it to a Slayer who has had Charge and Shatter Limbs + RD the entire time. It's also not that simple with the cleanses since Slayer tend to drop off both Onslaught and No Escape before even before they aply SL. While SH has basicly no other AoE debuffs to bury the Bad Gas if they make a "Suicide Pounce". Then order also have Whispering Winds to deal with it wich have a much higher uptime then Chop Fasta! for example.

I can see the concerns tho and it should probobly be taken into acount for, but the counterplays are there.

[Toldavf]

The problem with the changes you suggest are that they don't really fix anything. A melee squig will be squishy with generally very low damage in comparison to a true mdps. Adding utility is all well and good but that is something that the devs did on live for years to the engie and magus and they where always regarded as inferior.

Skills like bad gass should never be core they are massively strong.

All things said if these changes went ahead i could defiantly see melee squigs having a place in a bombing warband as they would be for this at least much more viable.

Over all however i must say i dislike these changes.

[Theseus]

I like the proposal you made.... even as a pure order player I really would like a pouncing gobbo.... might be fun to pounce at each other.... and just switch places. But I think the proposals of Gobtar and fotpatrol are better here.

But fore most, I would like to propose to wait what the discussion of the whitelion pounce brings and give the squigpounce a similar cd. With what reason schould it be different? Because he also has raged abilities? I dont think that concern would apply here, as he you can argue that he wont use pounce at all if he is on ranged.

[Danielle]

Pounce with Bad Gas on the same class sounds like something that could be potentially game breaking for overall large scale RvR balance. The reason slayers/squigs aren't completely ridiculous with these abilities is because they have to push through the other team to drop it on healers, with pounce that is no longer a limitation. What makes it worse is that unlike DoKs, WPs cannot cleanse ailments, and cannot AoE cleanse ailments. That means that a bad gas drop = 1 group heal for 5s = dead warband in RvR very likely. So even a suicidal jump that has 16s cd with Bad Gas could be destructive.

The thing is SH can allready do this at 30feet range while Snaring the frontline, So effectivly it's just a 35feet boost to the jump with the loss of the Snare. (Turn your back to the enemy and press Sticky Squigs is how you do it btw)
Also comparing it to a Slayer who has had Charge and Shatter Limbs + RD the entire time. It's also not that simple with the cleanses since Slayer tend to drop off both Onslaught and No Escape before even before they aply SL. While SH has basicly no other AoE debuffs to bury the Bad Gas if they make a "Suicide Pounce". Then order also have Whispering Winds to deal with it wich have a much higher uptime then Chop Fasta! for example.

I can see the concerns tho and it should probobly be taken into acount for, but the counterplays are there.

The pounce in this thread is listed at 167ft hence the reason for my concern. 35ft is substantially more risky for the SH than what this could be. Don't get me wrong I don't even play large scale properly atm, but having played it on live this is just something that jumped out at me, as being potentially broken. WW has a 20s cd, RP/AM cleanse can be on 5s cd (I know, unlikely) if these are on cd while the bad gas happens I would say it's likely game over. Which I would say is over the top, for one class using one ability.

[catholicism198]

While I agree that Melee squigs do need a buff- granting them access to quick shooting abilities seems a bit extreme...

Aside from Don't Hit Me! none of the other (non-SA) Path of Stabbin' abilities need to be useable while in SA.
Stabbity and Ard Noggin deal the same damage
and Big Claw deals more damage than Cut Ya!

Instead of giving them Charge! They can just make Run Away! usable while in SA.
While not the same as Charge! it will make it so that squigs don't get yet another kiting ability.

So it would be......5/Pounce 9/Bad Gas! 13/Big Bouncin'!

Spoiler:

Pounce with Bad Gas on the same class sounds like something that could be potentially game breaking for overall large scale RvR balance. The reason slayers/squigs aren't completely ridiculous with these abilities is because they have to push through the other team to drop it on healers, with pounce that is no longer a limitation. What makes it worse is that unlike DoKs, WPs cannot cleanse ailments, and cannot AoE cleanse ailments. That means that a bad gas drop = 1 group heal for 5s = dead warband in RvR very likely. So even a suicidal jump that has 16s cd with Bad Gas could be destructive.

The thing is SH can allready do this at 30feet range while Snaring the frontline, So effectivly it's just a 35feet boost to the jump with the loss of the Snare. (Turn your back to the enemy and press Sticky Squigs is how you do it btw)
Also comparing it to a Slayer who has had Charge and Shatter Limbs + RD the entire time. It's also not that simple with the cleanses since Slayer tend to drop off both Onslaught and No Escape before even before they aply SL. While SH has basicly no other AoE debuffs to bury the Bad Gas if they make a "Suicide Pounce". Then order also have Whispering Winds to deal with it wich have a much higher uptime then Chop Fasta! for example.

I can see the concerns tho and it should probobly be taken into acount for, but the counterplays are there.

The pounce in this thread is listed at 167ft hence the reason for my concern. 35ft is substantially more risky for the SH than what this could be. Don't get me wrong I don't even play large scale properly atm, but having played it on live this is just something that jumped out at me, as being potentially broken. WW has a 20s cd, RP/AM cleanse can be on 5s cd (I know, unlikely) if these are on cd while the bad gas happens I would say it's likely game over. Which I would say is over the top, for one class using one ability.

I doubt those are exact values.
If you look at the tool it it also says that it'll cost 100 action points. That's more than double what it costs a WL...and charge costs 35 action points- 35 more points than other careers with charge.

[catholicism198]

Not letting me edit my post---apparently he meant it to have that exact range....but it does cost nearly half your action point pool so.....

[Nekkma]

What is the reason for the range and ap cost in the pounce suggestion?

Personally I do not really see the point of such a long pounce for such high ap cost. Even the 65 feet WL pounce often leads to beeing out of guard and heal range. I like the idea of a pounce but I would suggest a shorther lenght, still a bit longer than the WL counterpart, say between 80-100 feet. A shorther pounce would also warrant it costing less ap. Cut it in half to start with seems reasonable.

Edit: The reason I think it should be longer than the WL is that SH is mainly a ranged class and should be able to start with firing off a few ranged abilities before pouncing in.

[footpatrol2]

These suggestions are a lot different then what I thought it was.

Aside from Don't Hit Me! none of the other (non-SA) Path of Stabbin' abilities need to be useable while in SA.
Stabbity and Ard Noggin deal the same damage
and Big Claw deals more damage than Cut Ya!

Cut ya! is a 15 sec dot duration. Big claw is a 9 sec dot duration. Since they are dots you can stack them...