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White Lion AP management

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
Mausini
Posts: 78

White Lion AP management

Post#1 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:29 pm

Hi dear community,
I tried to write down a proposal for one of the problems I encountered a lot of times while playing WL. I am not a native speaker so please don’t get mad about wrong grammar and spelling.
I hope I did everything right. Ok lets go!

The Problem: AP Management and its impact on burst damage
One of the major problems WL had in the past and still have is the lack of any solid AP management possibilities in his skill set. Even with AP gain tactics from party members the WL ends up AP starved after a very short period, often even during his initial burst. This is a major problem for fulfilling his duties as a MDSP in any party or warband.

Reasons why:
1.The WL is a burst heavy class and a good chunk of his burst comes from “Coordinated Strike” and the pet attack skills and almost all forms of CC are bound to the lion too. Unloading your alpha strike damage without the pet leads to very sup pair results. (Let’s leave “Loner” out of the discussion)
= You are forced to recast your Lion immediately after the cooldown is gone. While the pet is a major asset of the WL toolset, the AP costs of recasting the pet (55 AP) is very hurtful in mid to big scale fights (the pet has a shorter survivability than its cooldown most of the time).

2. A lot of his damaging skills have rather high AP costs for the damage they do, varying between 30 and 55 AP.

3. Because of the lack of strong defensive “oh ****” buttons or easily available defensive boosting tactics, the main way of playing WL is to use “Pounce” to become a super mobile “I jump on you and try to burst you down” class but here again the 30 AP for getting alive to your target hurts getting your alpha damage rotation off.
(This point might be a good topic for another balancing proposal -> “Pounce” is much to mandatory and this narrows build variety)

Conclusion from the reason why:
In longer lasting battles the WL does very often engage enemies with 50 to 85 AP missing because of recasting pets and the need to close gaps fast. His damaging skills are also rather AP intense and is burning the rest of his AP fast. Because of that he is lacking the needed pressure over a timeframe of lets say 10 seconds to actually threaten a healer or dsp class (which is his job as a MDSP). Combine that with his expensive to access heal debuff that is also outgoing and not incoming heal and you have the reason why WL do have problems pressuring backlines. (Example: You vs. a heal DoK is almost pointless because the DoK can out sustain you with ease)

Available skills and ways to manage your AP

Lions Fury:
“Lions Fury” is indeed a very good tactic because it helps to make your alpha strike hit harder and also helps to spare some AP for getting one more skill in your rotation but it does not solve the general problem of being AP starved a lot of time.

Hack and Slash:
“Hack and Slash” is making the associated skills much more efficient but would force you to spam “Hack” which is undesirable at best.

Moral 2 “Relentless Assault” and “Force of Will”
The last changes to moral gain helps the WL in general. Both Morals helps with AP management but the problems descriped with AP management makes “Force of Will” the way to go Moral in almost every situation. You are going to fire it as soon as it up just for getting the AP. Tactical use of the drain is secondary most of the time. This leads again to less build variety.
Anyway: The health of a class should not be bound to the use of moral abilities.

Possible solutions:
I think there are several possible solutions or combinations of them.
1. Lower the costs of recasting the pet by:
  • a. Lowering the pet summon costs in general
  • b. Expand the “Speed Training” tactic with a AP discount for summoning the lion
  • c. Lower the summoning costs (and maybe also the cooldown) if the pet is killed by several different damage sources. This is for the standard case that the lion dies in aoe storms. (I know that mirror class examples should be avoided but I just want to point out why loosing the pet is a huge problem for WL . While SH can fire and forget the pet and still dish out damage from the backlines, the WL absolutely needs his pet and the cc it delivers for getting his main job done -> deliver heavy burst to the point.)
2. Introduce an AP management tactic that does one of the following thing. Replace for example the “Stalker” or “Blindsided” tactic with it (both are no good anyway)
  • a. Lower the AP costs of your attacks if the target is under a HP threshold (Lets call it “Go Down!”)
  • b. Lower the AP costs if your pet is near to you (don’t really like that but it might work)
  • c. If you spent 50-60 AP or more in the last 3 seconds your next attack will cost less or is free. (The downside of that solution is, that you need to plan your action in advance to get the most out of it)
  • d. Standard AP drain tactic on crit or with a positional constraint
3. Lower the AP costs of some skills like “Coordinated Strike” and “Cleave Limb” by 10, respectively 5 ap.

4. Lower the AP costs of “Pounce” by 5 AP. Now after it is not spammable anymore the AP costs can probably go down a little. (Thanks for taking my feedback regarding “Pounce” balancing into account. It feels great to contribute to WAR)

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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: White Lion AP management

Post#2 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:08 pm

Moving to discussions.

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Toldavf
Posts: 1586

Re: White Lion AP management

Post#3 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:40 am

I think cleave limb is reasonably costed and is indeed costed similarly to other skills that are exactly the same.

I wouldn't be opposed to 5 AP off coordinated as this would help the ap issues without making the skill to cheap (its still a very good skill),

I will also say that looking at it primal fury could use a reduction of between 5-10 ap it seems over costed for what it does in comparison to other skills like it.

As for tactics that manage ap a subvert strength mirror is the most viable however i don't believe white lions are going to want to waste a tactic slot on ap management for pvp due to the loss in dps.

As a side note how many abilities do white lions get off before they run dry using a typical rotation and tactics setup? and how many points of AP return do they generally run in gear?
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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Theseus
Posts: 526

Re: White Lion AP management

Post#4 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:49 am

Toldavf wrote:I think cleave limb is reasonably costed and is indeed costed similarly to other skills that are exactly the same.

I wouldn't be opposed to 5 AP off coordinated as this would help the ap issues without making the skill to cheap (its still a very good skill),

I will also say that looking at it primal fury could use a reduction of between 5-10 ap it seems over costed for what it does in comparison to other skills like it.

As for tactics that manage ap a subvert strength mirror is the most viable however i don't believe white lions are going to want to waste a tactic slot on ap management for pvp due to the loss in dps.

As a side note how many abilities do white lions get off before they run dry using a typical rotation and tactics setup? and how many points of AP return do they generally run in gear?
To your sidequestion: I run about 9 AP regen at moment. And I am drained after pounce, cleave limb, force opportunity sundering chop, coordinated strike and cull the weak. I will probably have first problems after the chop.... but thats the rotation i run.

The tactic may be a good way.... not now, but later, when we have better gear and can drop the 160 str tactic.
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Toldavf
Posts: 1586

Re: White Lion AP management

Post#5 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:15 am

I could see why that would be a problem being unable to have 2nd rotations is kinda bad for any mdps (I'm not saying lion is bad far from it) and i would say here we are addressing the issue of secondary rotations so with that in mind i think shaving 5 off CS, 5 off lions fury, and 5 off primal fury might be a decent solution.

Certainly a test period would need to be implemented before anything more drastic is done. I would also say that AP return from gear will constantly be increasing so this is something i think that should be considered.
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-

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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3807

Re: White Lion AP management

Post#6 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:20 am

The problem i see here is that WL is a "burst class" indeed the class with the highest frontload burst in the game

burst classes arnt ment to have sustain per say
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Telen
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Re: White Lion AP management

Post#7 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:36 am

With the highest straight up burst in the game if you arent killing something when you blow your ap then it isnt dying.
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Yardy
Posts: 123
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Re: White Lion AP management

Post#8 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:13 am

I find White lions can cut a goblin up pretty fast.. if i cant get my defensive moves off in time the lion will almost always issue both my goblin classes with a respawn option. (one class i don't like encountering on my own or without a dedicated healer) I think the lack of AP is a good vice on the WL (also i am playing with a ping close to 400 at times)
CRUDE big boss! (Scrubs can lead too)
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Knightningale
Posts: 10

Re: White Lion AP management

Post#9 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:04 am

The cost for recasting the pet seems quite high, maybe it really needs to be looked at.

But other than that, as many others including the OP have expressed that WL is a burst class. If it does not have an AP issue, it would have been a sustainably high DPS class, which does not seem all that balanced and contradicts with the premise.

As for pounce, it does not seem to be over cost as well. It is a signature move and one of the prominent playstyle indeed but to get to your target, you can also use other tools like anti-snare + charge, use pet to snare and kd or even fetch etc. Almost the same goes for being defensive as well, you can detaunt, call you pet to snare and you charge/flee away. Compared to other mdps like WH and slayers, WL seems to have even more options to get away from a dangerous zone in addition to using pounce for defensive purposes and survival. 30AP cost does not seem to be all that high, a normal dps skill costs around 35-40 AP. It does not seem be that desperate for an AP reduction imo.
Please hug and not hit my adorable dwarf and cute gobbo, Toldavf the mean. I shall become a snare bot again.

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Thayli
Posts: 134

Re: White Lion AP management

Post#10 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:19 am

I know this isn't really in line with the OP, but I wanted to ask since I have no idea. As far as I know pounce was nerfed a few weeks ago, adding a cooldown and presumably making it impossible to be used while in mid-air. That last part obviously didn't work. Is this due to a bug? Technical constraints? An oversight? Because as a Shaman/Squig Herder player, the usage of pounce in mid-air just makes me sad.

I have never played White Lion, so take this with a grain of salt, but is the class in that bad of a shape AP-wise? They have sufficient burst to kill me if I do not detaunt *exactly* on time and get no focus heals. That supposedly makes them effective at their role. I'm not against some quality of life tweaks (although please do not make the pet spammable. Last time I checked fetch is undefendable still.), but wouldn't upping the overall AP regains of the class simply boost its DPS, on top of the already high burst?
Thayli - SH
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