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[Rejected] [Engineer] Cannon Smash

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: [Engineer] Cannon Smash

Post#21 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:19 pm

Just tried it Cannon Smash Armor debuff stacks atleast with Gun Turret Armor debuff
Didn't tought they did, so thats why I tought it's duration wasn't an issue in my previus post. Them stacking making the CS duration an issue tho.
Last edited by roadkillrobin on Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: [Engineer] Cannon Smash

Post#22 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:23 pm

Cannon Smash is in the Morale stack group and stacks with ability-type armor debuffs.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: [Engineer] Cannon Smash

Post#23 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:25 pm

Spoiler:
Azarael wrote:Cannon Smash is in the Morale stack group and stacks with ability-type armor debuffs.
How come armor buffs from differents stacking groups doesn't stack tho?
We are not discussing that in this thread - Penril.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: [Engineer] Cannon Smash

Post#24 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:27 pm

Karast wrote:While comparative the damage on cannon smash is high,

The secondary effect is very minor compared with other morale 3's.
It is not high DD, it is highest DD, higher then all other M3s (and most M4s).

All high DD morales are used as "finsihers" in burst sequences. This is true even the M3s that do 50% of CS and believe me no one slot them for the self heal or AP-cost reductions.

Having a secondary effect that also increase the damage of your "in the air" and "subsequent" abilities isn't minor in any way. It is actually the strongest of all secondary effect.

Highest damage and most beneficial secondary effect for a "M3 finisher"/kill ability/burst sequence ability makes it very very potent.

Here is an idea ... lets change the armor debuff for a 10s AP-cost-reduction or a self heal and you can keep the 2400 ;)
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Karast
Posts: 554

Re: [Engineer] Cannon Smash

Post#25 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:43 pm

Tesq wrote:dont bring absorb on the table, they do not work vs morales, and chosen/IB bubble M3 are a self def tool.

-stag break on damaged(exept other morales)
-damages reduction dont kill, prevent an enemy to kill and those effects are on morales which cannot be load so easily as in chosen/Bo case and when you need an offensive moral you want it kill, so it's rather a downside than a good thing in most of situation.
-heal effect are not even near to a 30 sec armor debuff. The damage that the armor debuff increase after this skill is used grant the kill while a raw 1200 life more are 2 more hit with guard before die

basically used as finished it like a super finisher not only give the full damages 2400 but also debuff the target for 30 sec, it's a death sentence considering that rdps on order side are 2 instead 1 on destru and being it a morale it mean it stack with all other armor debuff.
If 2400 damages do not kill then the debuff will make it happen.
Why are you ignoring and downplaying the side effects on the other morales?

Also the 9s stagger is the longest CC in the game. Having your entire party shut down for 9s is massive. Saying that it breaks on damage completely ignores the power of 9s on CC.

You are also ignoring a 7s silence that doesn't break on CC. Or a 75% damage reduction, or the fact that a few of them are AoE. Or the ones with the selfheals, or the fact that a 7200 absorb shield is a massive absorb. Don't just brush aside game changing abilities like they are garbage.

Some of these are massively powerful abilities that bombing warbands are often built around.

Compared to a vast majority of the other M3's it is not that outlandish for a once a fight skill that takes a lot of build time. It is also not the only powerful morale ability.

Yes it kills tanks. It is designed to kill tanks, and it is the only ability on engineer that can be used to spike high armor targets right now. It is the core to killing anything in a good 2 2 2 comp. It is built around a group setting, and should be balanced as such.

Canon smash is only an issue outside of group and warband play. It is an important tool in group play, where engineer struggles the most. It's loss or weakening will greatly hurt that aspect of game play, for little or no gains in other areas.

This proposal is less about the power of canon smash, and more about the fact that engineers are more common now. Canon smash has been the same since T4 went live. There were 0 complaints before the engi buffs that made engineers more common and more noticeable. The ability itself is fine in comparison to the power of a majority of the rival abilities.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: [Engineer] Cannon Smash

Post#26 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:51 pm

Karast wrote: This proposal is less about the power of canon smash, and more about the fact that engineers are more common now. Canon smash has been the same since T4 went live. There were 0 complaints before the engi buffs that made engineers more common and more noticeable. The ability itself is fine in comparison to the power of a majority of the rival abilities.
Morale gain has been "restored" all the ugglies of old morale bombing/dumps resurface again.

Ppl complained about CS back on live as well but as you point out Engies were trash and near unplayable. Mainly because of higher armor values, hp pools and no Engi buff (range/damage).
Last edited by Bozzax on Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Karast
Posts: 554

Re: [Engineer] Cannon Smash

Post#27 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:52 pm

Bozzax wrote:
Karast wrote:While comparative the damage on cannon smash is high,

The secondary effect is very minor compared with other morale 3's.
It is not high DD, it is highest DD, higher then all other M3s (and most M4s).

All high DD morales are used as "finsihers" in burst sequences. This is true even the M3s that do 50% of CS and believe me no one slot them for the self heal or AP-cost reductions.

Having a secondary effect that also increase the damage of your "in the air" and "subsequent" abilities isn't minor in any way. It is actually the strongest of all secondary effect.

Highest damage and most beneficial secondary effect for a "M3 finisher"/kill ability/burst sequence ability makes it very very potent.

Here is an idea ... lets change the armor debuff for a 10s AP-cost-reduction or a self heal and you can keep the 2400 ;)
Many of the AoE morales such as the 7s silence and the 9s stagger find use in morale bombing in both group and warband scale. They create massive AoE spike when you stack 4-5 of them together, and provide CC to boot. Many groups use them for the CC they provide.

Canon smash is a spiking tool, on a career that lacks spiking tools. There is a reason it is strong, and it is already well balanced with the tools available to other careers.

There is nothing wrong with canon smash as it stands now. It is a very limited but powerful ability, that cannot be used in the vast majority of fights.

(Edit: Sorry I am a bit ragey today, and I don't mean to come off as ragey as I am. To sum up my position in a less ragey manner. Is that I feel that within the current morale system, and with the other rank 3 morales, cannon smash is not too outlandish. It is a very important and needed ability, and even with the morale rate increase it's use is still quite limited in most situations. In a premade situation it is hard to get to M3 without having to burn either M1 or FM for defensive purposes, or going for M2 for earlier spike. I could see cannon smash being adjusted. The damage or armor debuff reduced, but the other morales will need to be looked at as well. 1800 with the same debuff could work, or 2400 with no debuff, because typically if you don't kill with cannon smash you have lost it. As an engi you are too slow to bring in other dps before they get healed up again. As it stands cannon smash is your key ability for killing anything when fighting a good 2 / 2 / 2 setup.)

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: [Engineer] Cannon Smash

Post#28 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:07 pm

Spoiler:
Karast wrote:
Tesq wrote:dont bring absorb on the table, they do not work vs morales, and chosen/IB bubble M3 are a self def tool.

-stag break on damaged(exept other morales)
-damages reduction dont kill, prevent an enemy to kill and those effects are on morales which cannot be load so easily as in chosen/Bo case and when you need an offensive moral you want it kill, so it's rather a downside than a good thing in most of situation.
-heal effect are not even near to a 30 sec armor debuff. The damage that the armor debuff increase after this skill is used grant the kill while a raw 1200 life more are 2 more hit with guard before die

basically used as finished it like a super finisher not only give the full damages 2400 but also debuff the target for 30 sec, it's a death sentence considering that rdps on order side are 2 instead 1 on destru and being it a morale it mean it stack with all other armor debuff.
If 2400 damages do not kill then the debuff will make it happen.
Why are you ignoring and downplaying the side effects on the other morales?

Also the 9s stagger is the longest CC in the game. Having your entire party shut down for 9s is massive. Saying that it breaks on damage completely ignores the power of 9s on CC.

You are also ignoring a 7s silence that doesn't break on CC. Or a 75% damage reduction, or the fact that a few of them are AoE. Or the ones with the selfheals, or the fact that a 7200 absorb shield is a massive absorb. Don't just brush aside game changing abilities like they are garbage.

Some of these are massively powerful abilities that bombing warbands are often built around.

Compared to a vast majority of the other M3's it is not that outlandish for a once a fight skill that takes a lot of build time. It is also not the only powerful morale ability.

Yes it kills tanks. It is designed to kill tanks, and it is the only ability on engineer that can be used to spike high armor targets right now. It is the core to killing anything in a good 2 2 2 comp. It is built around a group setting, and should be balanced as such.

Canon smash is only an issue outside of group and warband play. It is an important tool in group play, where engineer struggles the most. It's loss or weakening will greatly hurt that aspect of game play, for little or no gains in other areas.

This proposal is less about the power of canon smash, and more about the fact that engineers are more common now. Canon smash has been the same since T4 went live. There were 0 complaints before the engi buffs that made engineers more common and more noticeable. The ability itself is fine in comparison to the power of a majority of the rival abilities.
-9 sec stag from bw/magus moral 3 is ST not aoe
-aoe silence like zealot is good only vs caster and as bomb stop (then is fine really), an armored debuff is good vs anything most of order classes are hitting (magic classes on order side are only dd-runeprist/dd-AM/ BW): moreover silence give immunity and also zealot m3 and alike need to used in melee range (30 feets which mean 1wb vs 1wb will mostly die in the attempt or you will half hit or 75% hit tanks).
-absorb from IB/Ch do not absorb morales damages, do not work on other party member ,take the spot of utility m3 which every tank have access to.
-the moral build time is greater now after the moral gain fix.
-nothing point it's designed to kill tank; anyway that would be not right in whatever way you put it, as i hope dev try to make 2h/s+b balanced with small trade off here and there, if a s+b tank can die by this a 2h which lack block is condamned. And regardless you may view the game as paper rock scissor but we not all done likle that, it a choice of direction, tank should not explode in my opinion in a rvr game (otherwise why call him tank).
-it's not balanced around a group setting, the damages are out of the scale of every moral in game both order and destru.
-does even yet engi/magus struggle in group play? more precisely the engi have faster burst than the magus, his channeling doing in 3 sec the same damages that a magus do in 6. Magus should have something like this not the engi.
-There were complain about cannons smash but the engi was in a bad place( 1 kill every 1 min is not much for a underperforming class to recive a nerf). Now that the classes are reciving attention values out of the scale like this one should be put in line.
-you cannot even talk about a lack of utility to justify a 30 sec moral debuff, since keg skill heal everyone and they probably stack with other keg skills.
Last edited by Tesq on Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: [Engineer] Cannon Smash

Post#29 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:24 pm

Tesq wrote:

-aoe silence like zealot is good only vs caster and as bomb stop (then is fine really), an armored debuff is good vs anything most of order classes are hitting (magic classes on order side are only dd-runeprist/dd-AM/ BW): moreover silence give immunity and also zealot m3 and alike need to used in melee range (30 feets which mean 1wb vs 1wb will mostly die in the attempt or you will half hit or 75% hit tanks).

Funny that you mention Zealots, since they have an armor debuff pretty similar to CS on a M1. Sure, Tzeentch's Talon lasts 15s, but it also debuffs resists (therefore buffing the damage of EVERYONE, unlike Engies who only buff Physical damage). Yet I don't see anyone complaining about it...

For this reason, I believe the armor debuff on CS is fine.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: [Engineer] Cannon Smash

Post#30 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:26 pm

Penril wrote:
Tesq wrote:

-aoe silence like zealot is good only vs caster and as bomb stop (then is fine really), an armored debuff is good vs anything most of order classes are hitting (magic classes on order side are only dd-runeprist/dd-AM/ BW): moreover silence give immunity and also zealot m3 and alike need to used in melee range (30 feets which mean 1wb vs 1wb will mostly die in the attempt or you will half hit or 75% hit tanks).

Funny that you mention Zealots, since they have an armor debuff pretty similar to CS on a M1. Sure, Tzeentch's Talon lasts 15s, but it also debuffs resists (therefore buffing the damage of EVERYONE, unlike Engies who only buff Physical damage). For this reason, I believe the armor debuff on CS is fine.
melee debuff from a healer in cloth which need to spam aoe heals all the time which those aoe heals take 2.5 sec to cast.

the time you need to move from your positon in wb from the backlines, risk to be killed and lower your party heal totally justify it. And i add, you waste a safer M2 in return, which is avaible earlier.
Last edited by Tesq on Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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