[Rejected] [Engineer] Cannon Smash

[porkstar]

Cannon smash. OMG I love this ability. Recipients hate it. This is the engineer's big move. Apparently people don't like dying from this ability. Anyway, since I love it and I spec enough morale gear to use it every 60s, maybe some gripers have a point that it's a bit OP. I almost always use this ability as a finisher. I wait until I see a target at about 40% health (25% for tanks), I cannon smash, focus fire, hip shot and that target will die more than 90% of the time. I will never waste cannon smash on a healthy target in the hopes that the debuff will help it die faster although this is probably extremely effective in a coordinated burst of physical dmg. If this ability must be tempered I would propose the following:

In general make cannon smash defendable/mitigatable with other morale abilities to include dodge, dmg reduction, block etc. (maybe it already is but I don't think so)

Also just general comments: cannon smash seems more powerful than any M4 ability. I think it was intended to be a unique ability and generally very powerful single target attack. I would never even consider using and engineer M4 with cannon smash available. All engie M4 are just some underwhelming aoe dot or cone dmg crap.

1. Re-work this ability to function as a finishing move. If the target is below 25% health, target takes 2400 dmg and 30% armor debuff for 15s. If target is 25% or above, target takes 1200 dmg and 30% armor debuff for 15s. <--- remember cannon smash is very slow moving and a target can easily be brought above the 25% mark in this time. In other words, if I cast at a target below 25%, there is no guarantee that it will be below 25% when the ball hits.

2. cannon smash always does 2400 dmg and reduce X armor for X seconds but it is 1s cast with a very recognizable indicator/reveal so targets can have a chance to activate a defensive morale.

3. This would be much more fun and my personal choice but likely not possible. Give Magus something AWESOME and leave cannon smash alone! Modify the Firewyrm of Tzeentch M4 and make a new M3 called Wyrmling of Tzeentch. Wyrmling of Tzeentch is a single target little bastard that cannot be killed or commanded and does 2400 dmg over 15s and reduces target's spirit and elemental resists by 400 for 15s. It follows the target for the full 15s. Magus dots would blow **** up.

[EDIT]

4. Cannon Smash Does 2400 dmg 0ver 10s and 1400 armor debuff for 10s. Use this change in combination with the damage being possibly mitigated by a groupmate's dmg reduction morale. Morale cleanse I'm not so sure about.

Of course choosing something like option 3, everyone would want a badass M3. So really any combination of the above with possible option to mirror in some way to magus. I just really don't want to see cannon smash nerfed into obscurity.

[Penril]

Moving to Discussions.

[Azarael]

Notes:

- Can't modify cast time yet
- Cannon Smash always inflicts 2400 damage, regardless of any other conditions, as it is raw damage. I will freely admit that I dislike constant damage effects
- As a morale, Cannon Smash's range is NOT extended by Improvised Upgrades, the server will block you if you try it outside of 100ft
- Any and all morale abilities are unmitigable, an exception for Cannon Smash breaks coherence
- Cannon Smash seems complained about per se, so I don't think it's a mirroring issue.

[Tesq]

-2400 is likely a damage for a skill which does " only" damages, all other morales m2-m3 damages have a secondary eff add with a damage of 600-900 M1; 1200 M2 (edited: i omitted the m1/m2 sy) or 1200-1800 M3.

-This is only true for st moral while m3 aoe done 1200 damages and the scale fine just with a drop around of 600 if i not mistake.

So the scale anyway is correct, loose the secondary eff but does full damages

But since the smash cannons was needed when the class had a low burst which was fixed with the last changes then :

A) the big damage could be compensate for a range heavy nerf, forcing the engi to use it more near the target; since it's a st skill, in aoe spec it would prevent to snipe down a healer due to range problem and instaed in st build would force the engi to use it maybe only if not pressure is applied or if the engi is in real danger and being unable to kite it could instead try to kill with massive force.

-sub A) alternatively could had a really high min range to force the use only for very long distance and so as opener/ or very late last hit.

B) the damage could be lower to 1800 and a secondary eff could be applied, other morales could be looked into--> bw/magus have some elements in common for moral 3 since they are from the same pairing, maybe the squig pet m3 should translate in something for the engi

C) the damage could drop (to 1200) but the skill made AOE + secondary eff (no moral tactic and M3, so it would not be much of a buff to the bomb in RVR).--> the easiest would be an aoe armor debuff to make worth melee aoe.

N.B. i would discard the choice of the op to leave it with 2400 damages but put a big indicator, since the moral performance for channeling was changed, i assume that a moral cast time would be not possible to interrupt.

[porkstar]

A) the big damage could be compensate for a range heavy nerf, forcing the engi to use it more near the target; since it's a st skill, in aoe spec it would prevent to snipe down a healer due to range problem and instaed in st build would force the engi to use it maybe only if not pressure is applied or if the engi is in real danger and being unable to kite it could instead try to kill with massive force.

-sub A) alternatively could had a really high min range to force the use only for very long distance and so as opener/ or very late last hit.

I use the Cannon Smash in the situations mentioned above according to the percentages below.

1) Opener on a target to to be focused - <10%
2) quick finisher on a low health target or a target that we just can't seem to make dead - 70%
3) fast pressure "offense is defense" DPS to burst down a target that will likely kill me if I don't have this tool. - 20%

For perspective, the majority of my engineer game play involves loosely organized 2-6 person gank groups, solo while following around the zerg and picking off it's scraps, keep defense, or solo or group scs. I mention this because I play in smaller groups and I am under the impression that we are trying to balance the game based on 24 v 24 or greater.

Perhaps we should start by defining what is the actual intent of Cannon Smash. Was it meant to be an opener or a finisher? Was it meant to be a defensive burst tool? Or was it meant to be a one-click, all purpose, F you and eat this massive amount of damage ability. Oh and by the way, here's the best armor debuff in the game for 30s. Good luck! If we are trying to balance the game based on 24 v 24 encounters, then it would be useful to define what is/was the actual intent of Cannon Smash.

Also, is it possible that this was the one engineer ability that was actually scaled to be relevant at RR100?

[Toldavf]

Currently its damage sits just below a half of most none tanks hit points. Back on live people had must higher wounds pools (due to sov sets having around 8k hp) and this morale would hit for just over a quarter.

I would like it to be borne in mind that as the gear progresses this skill will become less useful.

While I'm aware balancing classes with gear isn't the direction you wish to travel (and i think this is a wise policy) morale damage may be the only exception to it as it is only absorbed by big wounds pools.

[Tesq]

uhm it still was used in live as no escape finisher, so even regardless the wounds pool not much changed, i remember to quite hate it on every of my toons, as i said anyway the scale is right: 2400 damages are ok for a m3 with no effects in proportion. But if 2400 in 1 skill are too much to handle then a secondary eff can be add and the damage dropped.

[Azarael]

Cannon Smash already has a secondary effect - it reduces armor.

[Gachimuchi]

This morale already got nerfed when AM's morale pump got nerfed. I don't really see the point of nerfing a ST dmg morale 3 that does what it's supposed to... do damage. Arguing that it's better than M4 isn't really valid considering how much usefulness varies wildly among archtypes and mirrors. Additionally, that can be said of most M4s in the game. The only particularly good morale 4 that doesn't require 16 points dumped into a tree is ID.

I do kind of see where you're coming from. The additional armor reduction being there makes it kind of overshadow other ST M3 abilities. Sure you could remove the armor reduction and leave damage as is, but Engineer isn't heavily deserving of a nerf. And there are other morales that classes have access to that completely blow related morales out of the water. See: Khaines withdrawal, FoF/ensnare, death reaper, no escape.

[Bozzax]

I wonder what makes it over perform? What can it be, what can it be?

(debuff armor 30s > all other secondary effects on M3s below)

Marauder Tzeentch's Reversal 1200
Sorcerer Scintillating Energy 1200
Choppa Supa Chop 1800
Slayer Grievous Harm 1800
White Lion Dominance 1800
Engineer Cannon Smash 2400 + 30s increased damage (up to 335%) on target

Solution
Engineer Cannon Smash 1200 + 30s increased damage on target

solution 2:
Engineer Cannon Smash 1800 + 10s increased damage on target