[Marauder] Thunderous blows cool downs

[Tifereth]

Spoiler:

Because it once was and while it was the class worked. In a tough fight its DPS remained good throughout now it has a noticble drop off or slump if you will.

It's damage is mostly the same as cutting claws (that's with cutting claws up mind) maybe a little more vs squishier but certainly less vs hard targets.

Marauder has massive utility potential we don't bring everything in one spec and a decent amount of the utility is generally not even used in 6vs6 where TB shines.

Mara has ok back end damage backload is something different but in reguard to giloutine and pulverise. If you can't put a target below 50% then what good are they?

Light armoured players make the best targets shadow warriors, witch hunters and bright wizards are all super juicy.

As a side ever tried killing a healed target without TB on a mara?

And here I was thinking that the general consesus was the main issue with Maras was that they bring more than any other career can in a single spec. They outperform the debuffers on destro (probably on Order too) while peforming the DPS of a dedicated MDPS (Choppa), all in one spec. Which other career can do that? Aside from Chosen/Knights no other career can have their cake and eat it too, and they're getting changed, slowly but surely (look at the Knight crit nerfs, Slayer SL being a WB utility skill now, diversifying is the name of the game).

I don't see what prevents you from speccing full Brutality and having Impale be the amazing spammable filler ability it was designed to be. I fail to see how one of the best sustained damage abilities a different archetype has (WH/WE) isn't enough for a Marauder. Yes, the Brutality tree has issues and it should be looked at, there was a proposal for shuffling the trees but client control is needed for that, so I'm sure balance changes will come in time. But arguing that a spec that's designed for debuffing should have same or higher sustained damage and burst than a tree that's designed for that is just poppycock.

With this and other similiar responses everything has already been said, I'm afraid. Most likely general consensus is NO on any further buffs or even reverting the change. There's no other class that can dump so many debuffs on any target as quickly and effeciently (holy trinity of high quality debuffs all in a single tree, even). If anything, TB change missed the mark and needs further change to actually be a nerf. Maras need to bleed eventually so that Choppas and Witch Elves can share the spotlight, imo.

Here's hoping this thread will at least adress the possible need of rotation adjustments, if the problem can be confirmed by other Mara mains.

[Azarael]

As was forewarned, I agree with the above post. I will be blunt: you're not getting a revert to a nerf of a skill in the debuff tree on the basis that you lost DPS. That isn't on the table. If there is an actual problem, think of something else to solve it.

[Toldavf]

A little premature I think seeing as how at least half the thread is me and tenton arguing over it and it's been open less than 24 hours. I as stated did talk to other maras before making this post so I know it isn't just me that feels this way about the change.

[Azarael]

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. I'm telling you how it's going to be. Your debuff path will not be buffed because a nerf to it cost you DPS. You have a DPS path. Improve it.

[Toldavf]

Aza for the longest time savagery has been our dps tree. Whats stated in the tree description and the realities of playing the class are 2 separate things. I have work to go to i'll pick this up later.

[Azarael]

I don't really care if Savagery worked as your DPS tree as well as your killer debuff tree, because that's been highlighted many times as a problem with your class. I won't perpetuate that problem, and that's a hard line.

[Penril]

I think you guys are not understanding each other. Maybe I can be of help here.

Aza is not discussing about Mara's DPS; his point is that Savagery tree should be the DEBUFF tree for Maras and therefore, a DPS buff on any skill from that tree won't happen.

Khorlar raised the issue that Maras lost some DPS with the TB nerf (which is what people should try to debunk) and suggested reverting the nerf to TB to fix this. What he should have done was suggest a buff somewhere in the brutality tree. Or maybe, even something as extreme as, say, moving TB to the Brutality Tree while reverting the CD. Something like this (this is just an EXAMPLE and not a proposal, though if anyone draws ideas from it, great!):

Spoiler:

[Toldavf]

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. I'm telling you how it's going to be. Your debuff path will not be buffed because a nerf to it cost you DPS. You have a DPS path. Improve it.

So i took your advice and over the last few days I put together a design brief and a list of objectives.

So first i took two skills that currently under preform in their roles in the single target dps tree a tree focused on doing massive damage to a single target. The selected skills where convulsive slashing and Wave of terror.

So first i began by setting myself some ground rules.

1. As we where in the brutality tree i wanted to avoid any form of debuffing. This is pretty self explanatory as marauders already have enough debuffs and i certainly can say they don't need any more and i think that everyone will agree on this.

2. I wanted to avoid flat percentile damage increases we have mutated aggressor and i think that is also enough.

3. No arbitrary big dumb damage. I felt that guillotine should remain our biggest single hit.

4. No mirroring variety is the spice of life.

5. No crit buffing.

6. I wanted the marauder to be a class that is constantly switching (every 4 to 5 gcds) as currently we sit in sav and only use brute to finish.

So with these points in mind i bounced some ideas around and came up with the following. Please bear in mind that values are not set and I in no way expect to hit the nail on the head without testing, adjustment and a large amount of polishing. If they do go ahead and are rubbish i take responsibility so aim the hate mail at me.

Convulsive slashing is changed from its current form into an instant cast burst ability.
Requires brutality 30 ap damage 10 second cool down. Damage level somewhere between tainted claw and pulverise, buffs auto attack speed of self only by between 50%(strongest suggested) to 35%(a known level that order can survive from mara auto attacks) for 5 seconds (maybe longer will be needed but im doubtful) .

I think this ability keys well with the brutality stance and has obvious synergy.

Unstable Convulsions tactic changed to increase the buff from convulsive slashing by 100%

Wave of terror reworked into single target ability.
Requires brutality 40 ap cost 10 second cool down You strike your target twice each hit is slightly larger than draining swipes. Your gcd cools down a half second faster allowing your next ability to cast quicker.
I sort of wanted to run a theme with this one as the other 2 top abilities hit twice i thought it might be nice if this did to. Double strikes have pros and cons to them i'd be willing to discus.


Thunderous blows is locked to savagery and its dps is reduced to be equal to cutting claw.

I suggest this as it would hopefully keep the damage the same after piercing bite is factored in vs most targets and prevent its use from other stances as a filler.

[TenTonHammer]

Ok
Interesting

But I want to ask the question, why exactly does Mara need a dps buff? Yes it lost some dps without TB filler but the class is still a staple in destro groups, it's utlity more than making up for any lost dps still

So they have not become non viable so where is the exact justification for a buff?

Don't get me wrong I'm all for more active Mara play with more stance dancing, but I have no seen a "real" dip in class viability to justify a buff

[7rere7]

I think you guys are not understanding each other. Maybe I can be of help here.

Aza is not discussing about Mara's DPS; his point is that Savagery tree should be the DEBUFF tree for Maras and therefore, a DPS buff on any skill from that tree won't happen.

Khorlar raised the issue that Maras lost some DPS with the TB nerf (which is what people should try to debunk) and suggested reverting the nerf to TB to fix this. What he should have done was suggest a buff somewhere in the brutality tree. Or maybe, even something as extreme as, say, moving TB to the Brutality Tree while reverting the CD. Something like this (this is just an EXAMPLE and not a proposal, though if anyone draws ideas from it, great!):

Spoiler:

Yea ......and growing instability at 7 to 11 spot.