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[AM/Sham] AP Drain

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#71 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:29 pm

Great except how many of those are passive, do damage, other effects, can be spammed, avoided or cleansed?
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#72 » Wed May 24, 2017 3:27 pm

DoK can come really close with 15AP/Sec drain build tho. It has huge down time on the skills, 10 and 5 seconds, so the target is able to generate AP for the downtime in comparisson AM/Sham that have a 100% uptime on their drain.
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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#73 » Wed May 24, 2017 7:31 pm

BO/SM is 10 AP/Sec not 5 AP/sec. oops thought it was a per sec thing your right 5 per sec based on cooldown. You can do tricks thou with WW/chop fasta to make it 10 AP/sec.

AP drain groups is super valid way to play the game. It is just most players don't do it.

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Darosh
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Posts: 1197

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#74 » Wed May 24, 2017 11:54 pm

Mhm, how about a percentage based AP drain?

It wouldn't necessarily hurt the effectiveness, encourage if not force intelligent use and make it impossible to completly shutdown players.

E: Maybe bind the tick intervalls and the amount drained to the percentage of AP left.
Lets say its getting worked out in way that leaves the target 50AP, which across the board only allows for the use of one ability every few seconds. The drain aspect would still apply for every AP the target gains beyond the 50AP treshold. You'd still have an impact on the target, maintain the drain aspect and allow for counterplay/avoid complete shutdowns via debuff burying.
It would also cancel out mutliple AP drains completly and utterly shutting down targets for years to come. *cough*
Last edited by Darosh on Thu May 25, 2017 8:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Landgoat
Posts: 132

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#75 » Thu May 25, 2017 5:53 am

I disagree with the original post, there's plenty of counters to the AP drain

Even when I play on other classes than a shaman/am, I've been AP drained and it's really not that hard to counter: you have disrupt, block (if tank), cleanse, ap feed abilities, ap feed tactics, ap potions. I've been in a Caledor Woods 6v6 with 2 shamans on voice comms coordinating AP drains on a WL and then a switched to a RP and the healers (RP and WP) noticed and countered it with ease by cleansing, and ultimately beat us in the end.

This is an ability coming from a class with AP problems. Changing stacking of AP draining the same target as another would mean i would have to avoid draining that player for the risk of not returning enough AP back, if it even lands (in regards to your last issue).

In my honest opinion leave the AP drain alone, or at the very least make sure any changes don't result in a further AP drought for the Sham/AM classes
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Stmichael1989
Posts: 184

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#76 » Thu May 25, 2017 6:22 am

My issue with AP drain isn't necessarily the amount drained, it's the fact that it can have a 100% uptime. If a character is drained to 0 and has the AP drain kept on them, it serves as both a silence and disarm which persists as long as the AM/Shaman can stay in range. If it had a 20-30 second cooldown, it would still be a very strong ability. Being able to shut down a damage dealer at range for an average of about 4 or 5 seconds independently of hard CC is huge. Getting a steady stream of 20 AP per second for 9 seconds is just a bonus.

As for the claims of AP concerns, there's no reason why AM/Shaman should be exempt from having to worry about AP like every other class. There is no other class pair that is able to use core abilities to completely eliminate AP restrictions. If anyone else wants to have plentiful AP, they need to either slot a tactic, use a morale ability (which is unreliable and on a long cooldown), or gear for it heavily. On top of all that, AM/Shaman still have the restorative burst tactic if for some reason they feel they need more AP.

And while it's possible to cleanse the AP drain, cleanse cannot specifically target any one debuff, and each separate curse/hex/ailment decreases the chance that it's cleansed. If only 2 classes apply their regular debuffs, IE squig herder and marauder (both very common DPS classes), there's only a 1 in 10 chance that cleanse removes the AP drain. That's not counterplay, that's praying.

Keep it how it is, but increase the cooldown. I think 30 seconds would be appropriate, though I'm sure some would feel 20 would be more fair.
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Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#77 » Thu May 25, 2017 6:33 am

@Stmichael, Cleanses remove the first applied debuff it can target. First on, First off. There is no random chance to see which Debuff is removed. Same with Shatters and Disenchant. It removes the FIRST one applied.

@Landy, if you ran a double Shaman against a WP/RP and your AP was being cleansed, and you lost, then that's on you. Considering WPs can't cleanse Ailments, And the RP cleanse is on a 5s CD. So, either you failed to cover the APs with a single ailment, or the RP ran the cleanse tactic, which meant he was spaming cleanses, not healing, and either sacrificed spkie heals or survivability for that tactic. And if he is spamming cleanses, then he will quickly run out of AP, in which case the next AP drain you cast on him finishes the deal. If you guys couldn't handle that, then no amount of AP drains woulda saved you...
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Stmichael1989
Posts: 184

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#78 » Thu May 25, 2017 6:42 am

I stand corrected. In that case, that may actually be worse, because you would then have at most 1.4 seconds to cleanse the AP drain before either a separate player applies an ailment/hex, or the AM/Shaman follows up and covers their own debuff to guarantee you won't be able to cleanse it in time.
StMichael - 40 Warrior Priest
Elhim - 40 Shadow Warrior
Cullexus - 40 Witch Hunter
Teuton Codpiece - 40 Knight
Gritkicker - 40 Slayer

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Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#79 » Thu May 25, 2017 6:44 am

Again. First on, First off. If you want to stop it being cleansed, you cast the cover ailment FIRST. If you cast the AP drain, then an ailment the AP drain would be cleansed first. Also, each healer can cleanse 2 types of ailments. And the first on first off rule still applies. So, for the RP example, if someone drops a curse 1s before your AP drain, the RP would cleanse the curse and leave the AP.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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Stmichael1989
Posts: 184

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#80 » Thu May 25, 2017 8:12 am

Oh yeah, that's definitely worse. After all the debuffs have been applied, then the AP drain goes into the pile and has no hope of being cleansed short of the renown talent or SW m1.
StMichael - 40 Warrior Priest
Elhim - 40 Shadow Warrior
Cullexus - 40 Witch Hunter
Teuton Codpiece - 40 Knight
Gritkicker - 40 Slayer

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