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[AM/Sham] AP Drain

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
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Morf
Posts: 1247

[AM/Sham] AP Drain

Post#1 » Wed May 17, 2017 4:08 pm

Issue - ap drain stopping your natural ap regen, this can quite easily result to being a silence/disarm aslong as the ap drain is on you which is very easy to do.

How to fix this, i have 2 methods, the simplist way is to change it back to draining every 3 seconds however this did make it very unreeliable because if your target had no ap then you receive none back, this isnt such an issues here on RoR as it was on live as the changes to career mechanics means you are not severly lacking ap all the time.

Second method is more complicated but i believe this is the better option, that being cutting the amount of ap you drain in half but allowing the amount you receive to stay the same, so you would drain 90 ap and receive 180 back.

The last issue with ap drain is that it stacks with other am/sham ap drains without having some sort of scaler or reduction, the way to deal with this is to half the amount of ap drained and gained each time an ap drain from a different player is active, for example in its current state 2 ap drains on a single target would each drain 90 ap and return 90 ap, 3 ap drains would each drain and return 60 ap and with the change i suggested above 2 ap drains would each drain 45 ap and return 90 ap, 3 ap drains would drain 30 ap and return 60 back.
Morfee - Shaman / Mynnos - Kotbs / Grubod - Black Orc / Snubz - Squig Herder

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Gerv
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Posts: 811

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#2 » Sat May 20, 2017 1:04 am

Moving to discussions.
Be aware, currently I am unsure how complicated the last issue would be code so for the mean time, PLEASE discuss the first 2 options as stated:
1) Return the AP drains to drain every 3 seconds - is it required, yes/no and why you believe so.
2) AP drains now only drain 90 AP but you receive 180 in return - is it required, yes/no and why do you believe so.
Sia - DoK - Lords
Boyd - WP - O.S.

Miszczu5647
Posts: 445

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#3 » Sat May 20, 2017 7:45 am

Gerv wrote:Moving to discussions.
Be aware, currently I am unsure how complicated the last issue would be code so for the mean time, PLEASE discuss the first 2 options as stated:
1) Return the AP drains to drain every 3 seconds - is it required, yes/no and why you believe so.
2) AP drains now only drain 90 AP but you receive 180 in return - is it required, yes/no and why do you believe so.
AP drain is unique skill for AM/Shaman. No other class have this kind of AP drain. Changing it will change class.
Ok ad rem now.
Ad.1
It is not very good idea. Fights in FoR are rather short. Scenario 1:We attack. Few seconds earlier shaman prehot his group. Now it is time to utility skill - bubble, paddle, ap drain. Now heal. But ap were spent. I need more. Enemy target also spent his ap. And no income from skill (every 3 s tick).
Scenario 2: You are ambushed. Healer try to keep his mates. It's consume a lot of ap. And can not stand idle for 2-3 seconds. If he do fight is lost already.
Ad. 2.
If the consensus Wil be to change so drain then this is very good option. On side note I must add that annoyance of ap drain is on this servery because AM/Shaman are best healer in their realm. And they are best because overperformance of lifetap.
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Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#4 » Sat May 20, 2017 7:57 am

Well. The AP drain is an incredibly powerful tool. Not only in removing all AP concerns, but it's current iteration can effectively shut someone down indefinitely. It needs to be fixed or changed.

Adding option B, where it removes 90 and returns 180, is like wrapping your hands to protect someone's face before you punch them. It helps you far more than it helps them. I don't believe the drain should be a way to entirely avoid AP issues as long as it isn't disrupted. B would imo would fix the offensive "issues" with the skill currently, but still leaves it far too powerful of a garunteed return.

As it stands, and with option B, there is no need to slot AP tactic, thus empowering the class further. Not to mention in gear...

I would opt for option A. Yes, having the AP tick every 3s is a nerf. But it is a very powerful ability. You need to be cognizant whom you are placing it upon, and why. Are you trying to hamper their AP, or sustain your own?

Imo, option A would lead to more potential intelligent play and balance. It's a weakening of an ability, but it will still be useful. Testing would ofc be required.

And thanks to Morfee for writing these up.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1896

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#5 » Sat May 20, 2017 8:00 am

Spoiler:
2) Regarding this, I'm not sure entirely sure. I have both r40 AM and r40 Shaman, but have had somewhat little playtime on them lately. AM/shaman are very much "kings of healing" in T4 as of now due to their awesome lifetap skills.
The ability to drain enemy AP is something that helps the clothies stay alive, but it also really can shut down an enemy, to the point of not able to do anything if under 2 drains.

How about, instead of the 90 drained, 180 gained, it would be changed to 120 - 120, and see whether it is too much/too little?

1) Again not sure, as often the target might not have the AP available to steal at that point, thus making it very much unreliable. Effectively countering the drain by having nothing left to drain was always a valid tactic.
This is not the space to sprout how AM and Shaman are kings of healing, counter your own arguments and stating that " having no AP is a valid tactic". Continued ill-logical posting like this will be warned.

- Gerv

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#6 » Sat May 20, 2017 9:07 am

Point 1 will kill the ap drain and make it hard to use as it was before drain every second.
Also as stated, multiple ap drain or a continuos ap drain dont let you play, Since there is no resonable way to fix this with an immunity the better solution as suggested would be in fact allow only half the ap to get drain away while the am//sa recive always the x2
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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#7 » Sat May 20, 2017 9:48 am

No to both

There are game mechanic's to counter shaman/AM ap drains. Drains can be cleansed.

You can field very high ap feed rates in this game with your group comp. Currently this community doesn't value that. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist and you can't do it. It is a weakness of your group comp if you don't build in ap feeds. Which is totally cool but your taking a risk by not considering them. Your not going to be able to protect yourself from everything in one group comp and you shouldn't.

The only reason this is brought up in my opinion is what miszczu said. We have overperforming lifetap heals at the moment from AM/sham so there is a abundance of ap drains now. Similar to when the server had a abundance of engineer's and the server cried for a nerf. These drains were never considered so powerful that they warranted a nerf until there was a lot of them.

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NSKaneda
Posts: 968

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#8 » Sat May 20, 2017 12:33 pm

No to both from me as well.

It's true that AP drain can shut down your opponent but it's "undefendable" only in solo mode. Since every racial pairing has at least two group AP generator skills it's a matter of coordinating said skills.
AP drain can be disrupted or blocked. There are ways of defending against it.

Changing AP drain on AM/SHM would mean (in my opinion) changing the class and the way it performs in premades. It would also diminish self-defence capabilities of AMs (SHMs can kite away ;) ).

What's more next in line would be marauders / blackguards whose AP drains are also very effective but not often used right now.

I need reasons why you believe it changes the way the class plays and how it diminishes the self-defences capabilities not just your opinion to drive positive, evidence based discussion.

Gerv.
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM<|[]|>Ginnar IB, Vidarr HMR, Runatyr RP ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

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Morf
Posts: 1247

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#9 » Sat May 20, 2017 1:43 pm

I would just like to point out that i have played a shaman for a long time, the reason why ap drain was so important was because the lack of ap for healing, this isnt such an issue here on RoR due to the career mechanic changes allowing for lifetap heals reducing ap costs, even if ap drain was completely removed (which it shouldnt) it wouldnt be the disaster it would of been if sham/am didnt have ab ex mode.

The only 2 reasonable ap boosts are kotbs/chosen ap aura and zealot/runie ap rune/ritual and maybe also wp refreshing radiance and dok restored motivation which both require a tactic slot. Kotbs having a set range which doesnt negate the ap drain affect and runie/zealots require use of an ability and proc at 20%, you cant use an ability when you already have zero ap.

I think most of you ppl are missing the main issue that being it negates your natural ap regen and has 90% uptime, having to run a certain group comp just incase there is an am/sham (or 2) draining you imo is unrealistic, this has nothing to so with "undefendable only in solo mode" or some sort of racial pairing.

@footpatrol and NSKaneda can you perhaps show some reasonable evidence of how you can completly negate ap drain ? and by reasonable i mean where you dont have to run a special group comp or dont have to rely on a buff that has a 10-20 sec duration with a 1 min cd or so.

There is no immunity to ap drain and there shouldnt be but allowing it to stay the way it is and functioning as a perma silence/disarm is very imbalanced.

Im open to any other ideas on changing it.
Morfee - Shaman / Mynnos - Kotbs / Grubod - Black Orc / Snubz - Squig Herder

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NSKaneda
Posts: 968

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#10 » Sat May 20, 2017 2:02 pm

Morf wrote:I would just like to point out that i have played a shaman for a long time, the reason why ap drain was so important was because the lack of ap for healing, this isnt such an issue here on RoR due to the career mechanic changes allowing for lifetap heals reducing ap costs, even if ap drain was completely removed (which it shouldnt) it wouldnt be the disaster it would of been if sham/am didnt have ab ex mode.
You're kidding, right? Restorative burst combined with ~20% healing crit gives you more than enough APs even without drain skill. It's APs on every heal, including lifetap healing. EVERY heal. Works without ab.ex mode. Tested&used.
Morf wrote:@footpatrol and NSKaneda can you perhaps show some reasonable evidence of how you can completly negate ap drain ? and by reasonable i mean where you dont have to run a special group comp or dont have to rely on a buff that has a 10-20 sec duration with a 1 min cd or so.

There is no immunity to ap drain and there shouldnt be but allowing it to stay the way it is and functioning as a perma silence/disarm is very imbalanced.

Im open to any other ideas on changing it.

On order side: Slayer group AP regen, SW group AP regen, RP AP group rune, KOTBS AP group regen, IB AP group tactic, WL group AP regen.

Destruction has counterparts to these skills AND shammies get +AP for target on cheapest heal skill.

Ways to defend: starting with Initiative / Disrupt booster skills, group AP regens, LoS breaking, spending renown on Daft Defender / Initiative (you don't need that much for it to be effective). Ask any of group AP regen classes to use their skills when you are drained. Problem solved.

And AP drain CAN BE disrupted / blocked. I've seen in on my AM and Shammie enough times to know it to be true.
There's no need to change AP drain skills (remember that AM/SHM are not the only classes with AP drains. It just so happens that right now these classes use AP drain the most), just change the way you and your group are playing.
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM<|[]|>Ginnar IB, Vidarr HMR, Runatyr RP ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

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