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[AM/Sham] AP Drain

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Bozzax
Posts: 2045

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#81 » Thu May 25, 2017 9:32 am

Dabbart wrote:@Stmichael, Cleanses remove the first applied debuff it can target. First on, First off. There is no random chance to see which Debuff is removed. Same with Shatters and Disenchant. It removes the FIRST one applied.

@Landy, if you ran a double Shaman against a WP/RP and your AP was being cleansed, and you lost, then that's on you. Considering WPs can't cleanse Ailments, And the RP cleanse is on a 5s CD. So, either you failed to cover the APs with a single ailment, or the RP ran the cleanse tactic, which meant he was spaming cleanses, not healing, and either sacrificed spkie heals or survivability for that tactic. And if he is spamming cleanses, then he will quickly run out of AP, in which case the next AP drain you cast on him finishes the deal. If you guys couldn't handle that, then no amount of AP drains woulda saved you...
Irony is Landy seems to be the only one that has real experience of AP-drains in CW

WBvWB ap-drains are fluff
1v1 should not matter
6v6 I'm still waiting for some proof of a meta 6man using x2 ap-drains as their main strategy
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Darosh
Banned
Posts: 1198

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#82 » Thu May 25, 2017 9:51 am

Bozzax wrote: 6v6 I'm still waiting for some proof of a meta 6man using x2 ap-drains as their main strategy
You'd have to sacrifice mutiple gcds (considering that you have to bury the drains properly) keeping up the AP drain 24/7 with both healers, fighting off the cleanse marathon whilst healing through coordinated burst that constantly rains down onto your group. In other words, you'd maybe manage to keep the AP drain up on one member of the enemy group for a short period of time, but atleast see one member of your group faceplant - given that in a proper 6v6 your enemies are expected to have a brain and bait/wait for you to waste the gcds to deliver their burst. Not to mention you'd heavily gimp yourself bringing two shamans/ams to a proper fotmish 6v6, even with the current iteration of lifetaps. In other words: that proof will never be provided.

I could only imagine the AP drain stacking to be an issue in a 12v12, in a 24v24 - as you pointed out - its fluff again.
Unless ofc you are looking at 24 shamans vs 24 AMs, AMs would like have an edge in that given their ability to not only bury the drains with trashy debuffs but potent dots and turn some of their AP drains into AoE drains ... but then again, who cares about such a scenario.

If the AP drain sees changes, everything but a percentage based system that one way or another limits the shutdown potential and leaves ~50AP (whilst forcing intelligent play on both sides and allowing the drainage to continue beyond that treshold) to be used would turn the ability into a gcd waste, and even that change would probably be of no use when looking at two coordinated groups battling it out - it'd have a negative impact on the AP management/CC aspect of the ability for minor, absolutely insignificant increase of required awareness/coordination.
Last edited by Darosh on Tue May 30, 2017 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2045

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#83 » Thu May 25, 2017 10:48 am

Imo as soon as it moves to WBvWB AOE is what counts and ST ap drains are just helping you heal a bit (while annoying someone).

12v12 or PUG SCs, well I play a lot of PUG scs as of late (sad face) and 80% as melee still I tend to view ap drains as mostly annoying much like snares. Honestly SCs with 4 BWs or 4 SWs (heck even 4 engies) imo are much harder then SCs with 4 AMs and if I check DKs SWs and BWs are top 1 and 2 on every toon I have (own deaths).

Playing as a healer as pointed out ap-drain goes on a secondary target with longer life expectancy and no I can't spend 4,5s of every 10s to cover it up.

6v6 I could imagine it being possible to successfully pull an ap drain grp off but I honestly don't see evidence of this in game. This is why I ask if any good grps run it or is it still burst/procs and healer CCs (staggers etc) that is top dog? (Obviously an ap drain group doesn't even need to include AMs/SHMs).

1v1 ap drains are king ofc as long as your enmy isn't using HTL, x2 AP potions and/or CW + deft defender
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Bozzax
Posts: 2045

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#84 » Thu May 25, 2017 11:30 am

Still if everyone think this is big deal (being soft disabled) one could argue it should remove itself when a drain tick is more then remaing ap on host
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Darosh
Banned
Posts: 1198

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#85 » Thu May 25, 2017 12:14 pm

Spoiler:
Bozzax wrote: 6v6 I could imagine it being possible to successfully pull an ap drain grp off but I honestly don't see evidence of this in game. This is why I ask if any good grps run it or is it still burst/procs and healer CCs (staggers etc) that is top dog? (Obviously an ap drain group doesn't even need to include AMs/SHMs).
Surely is there are way to pull AP drains off without relying on AMs/SHMs, but thats an entirely diffrent topic isn't it?

Offtopic:
Kotbs/SM/SL/SL/WP/RP - both slayer with 6/6 BL for the AP removal proc, KotBS with UA (would require rr70 to be fully viable, or lack the AoE snare otherwise), SM running SS (would likely require rr70 + 4/5 anni to be fully viable) on order, semi-viable meleetrain.
Too lazy ducttape the destro equivalent - I am sure theres one.

E: Formatting/spelling.
E: ^ fully viable as in: optimized.
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Dabbart
Posts: 1970

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#86 » Thu May 25, 2017 2:35 pm

Spoiler:
Bozzax wrote:
Dabbart wrote:@Stmichael, Cleanses remove the first applied debuff it can target. First on, First off. There is no random chance to see which Debuff is removed. Same with Shatters and Disenchant. It removes the FIRST one applied.

@Landy, if you ran a double Shaman against a WP/RP and your AP was being cleansed, and you lost, then that's on you. Considering WPs can't cleanse Ailments, And the RP cleanse is on a 5s CD. So, either you failed to cover the APs with a single ailment, or the RP ran the cleanse tactic, which meant he was spaming cleanses, not healing, and either sacrificed spkie heals or survivability for that tactic. And if he is spamming cleanses, then he will quickly run out of AP, in which case the next AP drain you cast on him finishes the deal. If you guys couldn't handle that, then no amount of AP drains woulda saved you...
Irony is Landy seems to be the only one that has real experience of AP-drains in CW

WBvWB ap-drains are fluff
1v1 should not matter
6v6 I'm still waiting for some proof of a meta 6man using x2 ap-drains as their main strategy
Dear god. Seriously? No. Landy is not the only one with AP drain xp in Cal woods. I've used it on plenty of targets, and been the target multiple times. Edit: actually, by his post, he's only ever tried it ONCE. And then they failed to cover the drain enough for a single healer to cleanse it.

And you are missing the entire point. The AP drain isn't your main strategy! It's One base ability that you have to build a group to counter for.. you don't have to spec or build for it in any way. All you need is the class.

Also way to ignore my points entirely.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2045

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#87 » Thu May 25, 2017 3:17 pm

Sorry I missinterpreted it as theorycrafting my apology. So obviously you've also trialed a 6man setup using cordinated ap drain as a strategy to activly shut parts of the other team down.

What was your groups results was it better then ranged stagger and burst setup? Could you beat the best 6mans and is it the new meta?

Out of curiosity are you guys now mainly running 2x ap drains even after 13pts nerf? Is it the meta in you opinion even now?
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

Dabbart
Posts: 1970

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#88 » Thu May 25, 2017 4:20 pm

Yes we did run an AP drain group on order. It worked well. On the bus I'll type it out when I get home. Short answer, no it didn't perform better. But that was in Order side, I haven't tried a dedicated AP drain fro on destro.

And you keep trying to push this discussion towards the meta. Why? No we don't regularly run double AP drain. But I ran a triple AM group on order last week for lolz. I was on DPS, and we giggled the entire time as we AP drained everyone.

How about this Bozz. Answer your own questions, and respond to the issues I have already raised. The ones you quoted. Cause it sounds like you are the one theory crafting.

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NSKaneda
Posts: 261

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#89 » Thu May 25, 2017 5:01 pm

Dabbart wrote:And you are missing the entire point. The AP drain isn't your main strategy! It's One base ability that you have to build a group to counter for.. you don't have to spec or build for it in any way. All you need is the class.
And yet people do not build their groups to counter AM/SHM AP drain, people do not change their builds to ensure they have steady AP feed once they are a target of a drain. Also apart from random pug scenarios with 4 shammies / 3 AMs I haven't met AP drain-heavy premade in few months. Hell, apart from solo encounters with T3 shammies I haven't been AP drained in months!

The fact that, as you've written, all you need is the class does not (or should not) validate such severe nerf just because someone MIGHT use the tools a class provides in a way that forces you to rethink the way you behave on a battlefield.
Last edited by NSKaneda on Thu May 25, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RoR: Laiste MAG, Ropopuch SHM, Mordoszczel BO || Ginnar IB, Volundr ENG, Hagiel SW
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn (Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG - Ithilmar's Chosen)

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NSKaneda
Posts: 261

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#90 » Thu May 25, 2017 5:04 pm

double post, sorry.
RoR: Laiste MAG, Ropopuch SHM, Mordoszczel BO || Ginnar IB, Volundr ENG, Hagiel SW
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn (Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG - Ithilmar's Chosen)

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