WL/Mara and IB/BG armor debuff swap

[theoddone]

Thought I would share my opinion because I have rr78 mara and rr64 bg.

If the goal of this proposal is to make a group consider taking a bg over a mara. Then it is completely useless. Nothing will really change with this proposal.
If the values get swapped, marauders armor debuff will still be superior. Cutting claw is "on demand" compered to HW due to the hate mechanic, and its undefendable. Also the marauder has the mobility to be able to apply it much easier.

There are so many situations where the hate mechanic is simply too slow. In rvr things go so fast, and you want to be able to apply pressure instantly on an enemy group, or the target dies too fast, or suddenly the fight shifts and you have to run.

The proposal seems to be based on theory crafting, rather than considering actual ingame situations. Even if the armor values are changed between the classes it wont fix the underlying issues. I also think we need to stop considering mara and bg as competitors just because they share some debuff types. They provide tons of different kinds of utility.

A possible solution, but poor one. Would be to introduce a tactic for BG's which remove the hate requirement of the armor debuff, and make it undefendable. Maybe it should have a 2H requirement as well. Make monstrous ruin core, then put the new armor tactic somewhere in malice tree.
It would be a very good armor debuff, but you would have to spec for it, and spec high into the tree to get a decent value. It would be a good trade off between getting an undefendable and on demand armor debuff. Also it would be a difficult decision when the BG have many other good tactic alternatives.

[th3gatekeeper]

Those 600 extra armor debuff roughly translates into a 14% incoming physical damage increase on the focused target for all allies. To get some perspective that was about the same as we got out of COVs during crazy proc meta.

An iB/BG (13pts) would by them selves be able to combine it with M1 for a 59% physical mitigation reduction (52% with current values). We both know an IB/BG can put out BO/SM damage if you know how to play and have good healers.

It would be massive and I don't think it would be a good a idea since any class providing those extra cheese 14% damage will be mandatory in grps. Pushing it to ninja nerf Mara/WL is even worse. (I still think that 1600 debuff should be lowered together with armor potions and tallies not like this though).

600 armor debuff? Did I miss something? I thought we were talking about ~200 difference? And your 14% number ALLLLL depend on WHO you are attacking. It might be MORE than 14% if its against a tank, but it will likely be ALOT less against a squishy class with low armor.... It ALL depends who you are attacking.

So all this "maths" you posted, doesnt really show anything... And frankly, again, its NOT a huge difference from whats live currently, and yet you dont see this "meta" like you are talking about where people are running M1s + armor debuffs.... I mean its used... but its not "META".

So no, its not "14% more damage" like you claim. Unless my testing on armor values in game, and how much to stack vs WS etc is all wrong... Which I could be... but I would need to see more than excel to believe this.

I bet my money we'd see 2x Slayer, IB, KOTBS, .. again if this is done

As opposed to the 2x WL, 2x KOBS groups we see today?

[gandresch]

@th3gatekeeper
2*WL and 2*Kotbs groups. Really? Please be serious.

And tell me what the WL has ALL in one tree like you wrote before?

[GodlessCrom]

Yeah i legit never see double white lion groups. Unless there is like nothing else on. I see double or even triple rdps groups (fenryl/dan/molle pajama elf eyeshot squad ) more than I see that. Double knight group isnt that common either, though I admit my guild seems to have a weird lack of knights.

I have been in a double mara group, but it wasnt some leet premade trying to capitalize on that awesome synergy between two identically specced debuffing mdps lol. It was "hey anyone need a mara?" and Black Library was like "sure fine lets go kill some order". Which we did, but thats because order pugs are lemmings.

[roadkillrobin]

Its not gonna change anything (other then increasing TTK). The change isn't significiant enough to have an impact that IB/BG gets slotted over other tanks.

Removing the AD from WL/MA and remove long range punts from Kotbs/Chosen will however.

From a large scale perspective IB and BG also needs changes.

[Bozzax]

.

600 armor debuff? Did I miss something? I thought we were talking about ~200 difference? And your 14% number ALLLLL depend on WHO you are attacking. It might be MORE than 14% if its against a tank, but it will likely be ALOT less against a squishy class with low armor.... It ALL depends who you are attacking.

So all this "maths" you posted, doesnt really show anything... And frankly, again, its NOT a huge difference from whats live currently, and yet you dont see this "meta" like you are talking about where people are running M1s + armor debuffs.... I mean its used... but its not "META".

So no, its not "14% more damage" like you claim. Unless my testing on armor values in game, and how much to stack vs WS etc is all wrong... Which I could be... but I would need to see more than excel to believe this.

.

As opposed to the 2x WL, 2x KOBS groups we see today?

600 armor is about 14% more incoming physical damage unless they have changed live formula. Feel free to look it up and test it.

No, as opposed to the lack of 2x slayer groups we see today.

[GodlessCrom]

The difference isnt 600 though, it is 1280-> 1660 or thereabouts. Though most 2h Ironbreakers i know only go up to cave-in, so their armor debuffs would be less than that. The difference would remain comparable though Im pretty sure.

[Bozzax]

I'd wager most IBs group with a WL so why go higher



Well this is getting of topic but for destro the diff btw a BO and 1600 debuffing BG would be about 14% more incoming physical damage (BO990 vs BG1600).

14% more for your group is a big deal and to put it in perspective near the gain we had on crazy procs (group wide) when it was broken.

E: ORVR the snare would still be top notch but then again the role of the BO there isn't really ST assist dps.

[GodlessCrom]

Bear with me because spreadsheets confuse me and I have a 10th grade understanding of math (barely), but the difference between the highlighted values isnt 600. Its 2272->2576. Where is the 600 coming from? I apologize, I really am this bad at math, I dont doubt youre right at this point. (thank you for spreadsheet by the way, exactly the sort of data balance discussions need)

[Penril]

I love spreadsheets. Keep them coming.