WL/Mara and IB/BG armor debuff swap

[Tesq]

more than anything bozz issue is a not issue; any tank can alredy stack his moral 1 armor debuff with mara/wl one and so? why is it ok for other tank and not for bg to do that? also this could arledy be done by mara+bg and it wont be different later on......
This make no sense.

again what high gain are ypou talking about ....we are talking about a 5% armor debuff or just 2% on mara if he use PB. i alredy posted the values a 124 armor less is a 3% armor less , do the difference and remove the wep skill interation there is nothing here big at stake

[GodlessCrom]

Bozzax brought it up because he believes that focusing the two best armor debuffs on a single tank (demo strike and horrific wound) would make BG mandatory and so BO wouldnt be taken. I dont necessarily agree, because Skull Thumper and 100% uptime aoe snare are stronk, but that was the reasoning behind the 600 figure.

[Penril]

Correct. That won't necessarily make BG "mandatory". A Sav Mara + any other tank M1 will be almost as good tbh.

[Vajazzle24]

more than anything bozz issue is a not issue; any tank can alredy stack his moral 1 armor debuff with mara/wl one and so? why is it ok for other tank and not for bg to do that? also this could arledy be done by mara+bg and it wont be different later on......
This make no sense.

again what high gain are ypou talking about ....we are talking about a 5% armor debuff or just 2% on mara if he use PB. i alredy posted the values a 124 armor less is a 3% armor less , do the difference and remove the wep skill interation there is nothing here big at stake

It makes perfect sense. As others posted it really doesn't make BG/IB that much more desirable for group play. In it's current iteration it involves two classes working together to achieve MAX armor debuff (everyone talks about balancing around group play). While you are asking for one class to be able to double armor debuff (they can already do this but for less value as a WL/Tank duo) for MAX value. If anything, IMO as I've read this discussion and kept silent, this only affects the solo play of IB/BG. While nerfing (small but still) both group/solo play of WL. This wouldn't be a huge nerf to WL but currently the idea really makes no sense for either party as it really wouldn't help the one side, while or the other. So what is really the point?

I play both WL and IB. I disagree with this as this would only make me solo just a little more on my IB.

SM/Knight is still a better choice for group.

Just my opinions.

[th3gatekeeper]

more than anything bozz issue is a not issue; any tank can alredy stack his moral 1 armor debuff with mara/wl one and so? why is it ok for other tank and not for bg to do that? also this could arledy be done by mara+bg and it wont be different later on......
This make no sense.

again what high gain are ypou talking about ....we are talking about a 5% armor debuff or just 2% on mara if he use PB. i alredy posted the values a 124 armor less is a 3% armor less , do the difference and remove the wep skill interation there is nothing here big at stake

It makes perfect sense. As others posted it really doesn't make BG/IB that much more desirable for group play. In it's current iteration it involves two classes working together to achieve MAX armor debuff (everyone talks about balancing around group play). While you are asking for one class to be able to double armor debuff (they can already do this but for less value as a WL/Tank duo) for MAX value. If anything, IMO as I've read this discussion and kept silent, this only affects the solo play of IB/BG. While nerfing (small but still) both group/solo play of WL. This wouldn't be a huge nerf to WL but currently the idea really makes no sense for either party as it really wouldn't help the one side, while or the other. So what is really the point?

I play both WL and IB. I disagree with this as this would only make me solo just a little more on my IB.

SM/Knight is still a better choice for group.

Just my opinions.

I think this is a fair point however. I would say this suggestion is one step in the right direction. One change alone, isnt going to "change the meta" unless it was a significant nerf or buff...

The reality is, when you look at a Chosen+Mara in a group, there is so much overlap that it moots completely anything a BG might bring to the table.

Also, when you look specifically at WL/Mara Mastery Trees, its just silly that "everything" can be achieved in 1 spec. I am not alone on this, and am too lazy to go find Torqs comments and other DEVs saying similar thing.

So this ONE change isnt intended to "fix everything". IMO, BG/IB suffer more from having a shitty mechanic than anything else, but its small things LIKE this change, that WOULD all add up and make a difference.

But it has to start somewhere and lets all be honest here, there is no way to "fix it" without doing far reaching, large changes in multiple areas to several classes... Which will NEVER happen unless Torq decides by himself "this would be a good balance change".

So what can we do as players in the avenue we have? Propose small minor changes that in total WOULD start to fix some of this.

Since we live in an armor meta (not trying to debate, I see this as 100% fact). Lets look at just ONE reason that makes BG completely redundant, ARMOR DEBUFF! The Mara's is 100% better than the BGs in every single way....

Mara - Stronger, undefendable debuff, instant (no build up).
BG - weaker, defendable, requires mechanic build up.

Well, thats pretty silly... it wins in all three categories. While you DO have to spec for it, its not like it REALLY required much choice since Guillotine, Mutated Aggressor and Growing Instability are all low Mastery, and Cutting Claw isnt even that deep in the Sav tree.... If it were a Sav Capstone Mastery ability, AND required you to LOSE OUT ON something like Growing Instability, or Guillotine... Then sure, you would have a case to be made why "it takes Mastery" means anything at all...

Anyways, I see this not impacting the meta MUCH... But I see two points in the favor of this proposal and none in the counter other than "it wont change much".

1) It will add ONE SLIGHT "caveat" in asking how to build a group. The normal "Chosen+Mara" duo might think for just a second longer about who they want as the other tank, given that the BG can now provide the stronger armor debuff.

2) It might possibly even free up the Mara to spent a point, or more in OTHER TREES, possibly opening up more build options if that Mara wants to spec optimally for being in a group with a BG.

If you extrapolate on both of these by having more vision about other possible changes that could be tweaked... Well now you start developing a solid role/place in groups for BGs.

What is the only argument to counter this proposal?

"It doesnt change much, so why change anything if it really doesnt change anything"

[Penril]

it doesn't change much =/= it doesn't change anything.

That argument is not valid.

[Scrilian]

Spoiler:

Nor is "let's gimp the tree so people are free to spec differently".

Keep posts like this one out of the discussion.

[th3gatekeeper]

Nor is "let's gimp the tree so people are free to spec differently".

None is saying gimp a tree...

Especially for Mara this change is going to be not noticeable at all when combined with minimal weapon skill + piercing bite.

Gimping would be swapping the value with the BO, making it defendable, and moving it up the tree. Requiring more mastery, being ~half as strong, and defendable. THATS gimping.

Do you have a positive argument in favor of NOT swapping these? I have yet to find even ONE valid argument saying that "Mara/WL need strongest armor debuff in the game because......"

The only logical PATH towards an argument I can see would be in the WL territory, because they dont have piercing bite, which for Mara makes the nerf moot.

However I posed the question before, maybe it was answered... Didnt WL used to not even have an armor debuff? This is slightly off topic, but still relevant. If you can accept the premise that this could CONTRIBUTE towards FUTURE REBALANCES as well - such as maybe a few more of the WL moves being made "spirit" rather than "physical" so it synergizes with the SM a little more... Well anyways, I will go ahead and see if there are any GOOD argument in favor of NOT swapping just the values.

While we all agree "It wont change MUCH". I think that the SMALL change it does do, is in the right direction, not the wrong one and it opens more doors for future changes that might ALSO be in the right direction.

[Scrilian]

Who says that we all agree? I don't agree in the slightest, even for mara.
Firstly, I'd love to see anyone actually brining up any good answers to my initial post in the thread, preferably in a readable format, aka not a wall-of-text w/o a single thought through thesis.

From that I'd like to remind that as it stands right now WL doesn't have a rvr aoe spec, that is even remotely close to what mara is capable off both offense and defense-wise, nor a reliable incoming healing debuff(compared to any other mdps) and highly affected by the pet getting 2shotted - thus any kind of nerfs post-pounce nerf aren't even remotely justified.

The issue of a slightly higher single target low damage non-spammable armor debuff being OP - is another forum myth made up by some kind small-scale-only players, that is irrelevant in RvR, esp. considering the fact that melee are somewhat underperfoming in dealing roughly same or lower damage compared to ranged, while being not that much tankier and much riskier to play.

[Penril]

Arguments can be made for implementing this change only on Mara/BG. Or on all 4. Or none at all, ofc.