Scrilian wrote:Don't know if it's worth testing tbh, I'm kinda not convinced with this whole group of tanks agreeing and patting each other on the back on how "overpowered" the armor debuff is.
It's like the previous thread, from one side dps-tanks forgot to mention all of their tools available to them and just want to be the alpha-melee. And on the other is purely def-tanks, that rely on high armor to be alive and want to do anything to hinder an armor debuff, with a maybe a 4k armored squig herder or two in between.
I want some cold hard proof on why it's an issue so drastic, what a single target debuff with a 10s cooldown but a slightly higher value is so overperforming, that it needs to be dealt with asap. I'm not buying the whole "lets nerf it so it forces people to have different builds now herp-derp".
Why a specced ability in the middle of a MDPS tree even compared to a baseline TANK debuff is beyond me, how about we address the balance at least within an archetype. It's not even a case of Thunderous Blow, since CC/FO has already higher cd an much lower base damage, so it can't be just spammed as a main hitter pre-nerf.
The issue of everyone stacking on armor talismans is relevant and acceptable levels of armor as a whole not yet even addressed, so I say the proposal on any armor debuff nerfs/swaps is premature.
to answer your first question which was in the spoiler linked here about hard proof etc, When you gona take bg over chosen or BO when they can do the same dmg if spec off and can still s+b + bring also a lot of buff>/debuff on the field?
BO/SM bring a potentially 100-120 ini debuff and a proc on crit for all group that's a so good synergy that it is really hard to replace, with out talking about the numerous threads of what made chosen/kobs good enough.
Tough IB is a little better than BG dosent mean it dont deserve a bit of love.
to answer your second questions yes this not gona improve wl in aoe spec in fact this si not about nerf wl in aoe either or mara is about rebalance the armor debuff so that bg/IB have a strong point over other tanks and you can actually replace mara/wl for that debuff ( and still as i said 5% in difference more or less and anyway mara/wl is still undefendable)
The armor debuff x realm didn't get nerfed it still there if you bring the right tank;
to answer 3rd question this is not about stack 2 tools on 1 tank since first you not gona double BG/IB anywhere or solo with it since with just 1 active tanks and no group buff/debuff is really hard 1-3-2, second you still have to take 2 dps)you are not going to never play anymore mara or wl); this not only open more spec to mara/wl but also allow other dps as well to enter the meta more easier generally speaking since a sensible tools was made more accessible to ALL dps. IF this change will results in a even close case of some classes get take escluding more the others then those X classes should underdo a nerf process as boxx said once, balance thread is also for nerf not only for buff stuff.
Spoiler:
also about wl aoe i made a proposal for wl aoe spec which was no brain for me and got rejected like fix the ap problem and increase aoe dmg so at least im in good faith here, not just asking rebalance or nerf for the sake to see nerf something
Changing core game mechanics is the road to hell and neverending story. For example - let swap mara pull for WL jump? Mara pull is trash, WL got additioanal CC from pet. So such exchange would be fair enough.
You're not even trying to make reasonable posts and you've been warned to follow the BDF rules before.
Tesq wrote:
to answer 3rd question this is not about stack 2 tools on 1 tank since first you not gona double BG/IB anywhere or solo with it since with just 1 active tanks and no group buff/debuff is really hard 1-3-2, second you still have to take 2 dps)you are not going to never play anymore mara or wl); [/spoiler]this not only open more spec to mara/wl but also allow other dps as well to enter the meta more easier generally speaking since a sensible tools was made more accessible to ALL dps. IF this change will results in a even close case of some classes get take escluding more the others then those X classes should underdo a nerf process as boxx said once, balance thread is also for nerf not only for buff stuff.
Tesq, You know that you and I are on the same page. I am curious, since I only know Mara.
What Mara Spec, and or WL spec do you think this opens up to be in more parties. Right know everyone goes some version of Deadly Clutch, Cutting Claw, TB, Guillotine, and Growing Instability right? Basically split between Sav and Brutality.
So I would like to just have a quick chat. Lets say it goes through, will Maras still spec for Cutting Claw just because its on the way to Deadly Cutch? Or... do you think they will get neither now, and if so, what would some viable specs look like.
Does Wave of Terror suddenly become more viable? What about Monstro? Thoughts?
Tesq wrote:
to answer 3rd question this is not about stack 2 tools on 1 tank since first you not gona double BG/IB anywhere or solo with it since with just 1 active tanks and no group buff/debuff is really hard 1-3-2, second you still have to take 2 dps)you are not going to never play anymore mara or wl);this not only open more spec to mara/wl but also allow other dps as well to enter the meta more easier generally speaking since a sensible tools was made more accessible to ALL dps. IF this change will results in a even close case of some classes get take escluding more the others then those X classes should underdo a nerf process as boxx said once, balance thread is also for nerf not only for buff stuff.
Tesq, You know that you and I are on the same page. I am curious, since I only know Mara.
What Mara Spec, and or WL spec do you think this opens up to be in more parties. Right know everyone goes some version of Deadly Clutch, Cutting Claw, TB, Guillotine, and Growing Instability right? Basically split between Sav and Brutality.
So I would like to just have a quick chat. Lets say it goes through, will Maras still spec for Cutting Claw just because its on the way to Deadly Cutch? Or... do you think they will get neither now, and if so, what would some viable specs look like.
Does Wave of Terror suddenly become more viable? What about Monstro? Thoughts?
i dont think we can discuss that in balance thread most likely a full mid build+ aoe kD and ini debuff. Provide another 1 dps gona take the 50% heal debuff.
Probably squig +mara since is basically gogin to be hard to kill in game and can offer heal debuff. Probably BG+ 1 tank +mara+squig+zealot then either dok if chosen or shammy if you bring a bo
Tesq wrote:
to answer 3rd question this is not about stack 2 tools on 1 tank since first you not gona double BG/IB anywhere or solo with it since with just 1 active tanks and no group buff/debuff is really hard 1-3-2, second you still have to take 2 dps)you are not going to never play anymore mara or wl);this not only open more spec to mara/wl but also allow other dps as well to enter the meta more easier generally speaking since a sensible tools was made more accessible to ALL dps. IF this change will results in a even close case of some classes get take escluding more the others then those X classes should underdo a nerf process as boxx said once, balance thread is also for nerf not only for buff stuff.
Tesq, You know that you and I are on the same page. I am curious, since I only know Mara.
What Mara Spec, and or WL spec do you think this opens up to be in more parties. Right know everyone goes some version of Deadly Clutch, Cutting Claw, TB, Guillotine, and Growing Instability right? Basically split between Sav and Brutality.
So I would like to just have a quick chat. Lets say it goes through, will Maras still spec for Cutting Claw just because its on the way to Deadly Cutch? Or... do you think they will get neither now, and if so, what would some viable specs look like.
Does Wave of Terror suddenly become more viable? What about Monstro? Thoughts?
i dont think we can discuss that in balance thread most likely a full mid build+ aoe kD and ini debuff. Provide another 1 dps gona take the 50% heal debuff.
Probably squig +mara since is basically gogin to be hard to kill in game and can offer heal debuff. Probably BG+ 1 tank +mara+squig+zealot then either dok if chosen or shammy if you bring a bo
I am curious, are you people for real or is this a troll post?
Nothing will change. People will still go for the armor debuff. It still adds a lot of dmg for you, and your party. Which has been pointed out in this thread.
The issue with the mara is not a armor debuff value alone. It is the whole package of debuffs, mobility, and anti-kiting tools.
As for the suggestion of ditching the sav tree completely, lol. All this talk of "trinity of debuffs". Do you really think people will give up armor debuff, wounds debuff, and healing debuff? And in exchange for what? A short aoe kd that gives unnecessary immunities to everything around you, when you could have someone else do a nice 3sec kd, and use different cc on the rest of the enemy group when it suits you. Wave of terror is also quite lackluster. WoM is nice, but if you have a SH or BO its not that usefull, and its on a long cd.
theoddone wrote:
I am curious, are you people for real or is this a troll post?
Nothing will change. People will still go for the armor debuff. It still adds a lot of dmg for you, and your party. Which has been pointed out in this thread.
The issue with the mara is not a armor debuff value alone. It is the whole package of debuffs, mobility, and anti-kiting tools.
As for the suggestion of ditching the sav tree completely, lol. All this talk of "trinity of debuffs". Do you really think people will give up armor debuff, wounds debuff, and healing debuff? And in exchange for what? A short aoe kd that gives unnecessary immunities to everything around you, when you could have someone else do a nice 3sec kd, and use different cc on the rest of the enemy group when it suits you. Wave of terror is also quite lackluster. WoM is nice, but if you have a SH or BO its not that usefull, and its on a long cd.
Are we even playing the same game?
-due cleanse happening, and fast target swap be a thing yes.
-aoe kd is not used in place as 3 sec kd is used as gap closer/kite tool/interrupt
.you alredy answered by yourself if ppl will not leave the full package then is coold these armor debuff will get rebalance.
