WL/Mara and IB/BG armor debuff swap

[Bozzax]

The 2272 is what you get as BG combined with M1 armor debuff and imo the reason why you never should use anything else then that M1.

(Edited post above to explain what 600 is all about)

[GodlessCrom]

Ooooooh I see, I thought you were comparing the difference between Cutting Claw and Horrific Wound, not Wot Armor? and Horrific Wound, my bad.

Edit: isnt it a bit of a moot point since nearly all destro groups have a mara so you can stack Demolishing Strike and Cutting Claw anyways? Or does Demo Strike only stack with the tank's own armor debuff?

[Bozzax]

BGs will increase the physical damage of their group by near 14% more compared to the BO 990 armor debuff (on top of 10+10 avoidance and +10crits).

Keep in mind that this suggestions is twofold and also aims to lower the WL/MARA armor debuff. So no Maras won't be debuffing armor for 1600.

(No they stack with everything since they are morale type)

[GodlessCrom]

Okay, I thought you were discussing what they *currently* can do, not with the proposal. As to my comment about it being a moot point: youre saying the BG increases group damage by 14% according to proposed changes, but since the BG would just have current mara values for armor debuff, wouldnt the net result be the same? I.e. a group that was BO+Mara before the change would debuff enemies for the same amount, since the Mara has Cutting Claw and we assume the BO slots demo strike. After this change (if it happens, which I now doubt) it would be the same effective armor debuff, but the BG would be the one doing it (would be a nerf to armor debuffs in general as Theo pointed out, as BG armor debuff requires mechanic build up, is not undefendable, and BG lacks mobility of mara), so technically yes the BG increases their groups damage potential by 14%, but relative to a normal group's composition prior to the change, it wouldnt have actually changed at all?

I guess Im just confused as to what your point is in this case. BO armor debuff is irrelevant because Mara is in every premade anyways. Either way, the group in question debuffs the same armor values, its just in one case all the debuffing stems from the tank (post change) and in the other case, it stems from tank+mdps (current in game build).

Am I missing something? I feel like we may be talking past each other at this point lol. Or I am hopelessly confused, as all humanities scholars are when confronted by the specter of mathematics.

[Bozzax]

My .2$ on this is that by swapping the debuffs IB/BG becomes mandatory because of the high gain of this debuff.

I don't think it is good idea to nerf mara/wl to make IB/BGs more attractive. If mara/wl are op they should be nerfed based on that not that some other class is up.

[GodlessCrom]

Read the subject of the thread and or OP

I understand the proposal, its just swapping the values. Youre talking about BG buffing the groups damage by 14% but thats a nonsense statement because thats assuming the group wasnt running an armor debuff mara beforehand, which we all know every group runs. Yes, it would be one class rather than two giving out that damage increase, but what would the functional difference be? All groups that run melee train currently run armor debuff mdps anyways. Is your argument that hinging that 14% damage increase on one class rather than two=too powerful?

EDIT: my bad, replied before your edit. I understand now, sorry for my long-winded confusion haha. I dont know if they would be mandatory, I am not experienced enough in competitive group play to comment, but I do agree now that we should buff the two classes in some way besides swapping the armor debuff values.

[Annaise16]

It's hard to tell because they haven't given an example of their calculations but its looks those quoting the maths haven't understood the difference between a % damage increase and an % armor decrease. To work out the % damage increase you have to know the target's armor and the attacker's weapon skill, as well as the armor debuff.

For example:

Let's assume the target has 3000 armor and the attacker's weapon skill gives 40% penetration.

3000 armor provides approximately 75% damage reduction. The weapon skill reduces this to 45% mit, or 55% damage.

A 1500 armor debuff (WL/Mar) reduces the armor 3000 - 1500 = 1500 or 37% mit. Weapon skill bypasses 40% of this which leaves 22% mit, or 78% damage.

A 1200 armor debuff (BG/IB) reduces this to 1800 or approx 45% mit. Weapon skill penetrates 40% of this which leaves 27% mit, or 73% damage.

So for an armor value of 3000 and an attacker's weopon skill penetration of 40%, the difference between damage for the 2 debuffs is 78% vs 73%. That's a 5 percentage point difference, which would be a 5/73 = 7% damage increase for the higher debuff vs the lower.

You can use this as a template for making your own calculations.

[th3gatekeeper]

600 armor is about 14% more incoming physical damage unless they have changed live formula. Feel free to look it up and test it.

No, as opposed to the lack of 2x slayer groups we see today.

How are you getting 600 armor? Im not seeing this.... The suggestion is to go from 800 -> 1000. Isnt the Mara one like 1400-1500 maxed and on my BG (2H) its like 1280 I think maxed (I could be slightly off) but point is, it ISNT 600...

Also, I have ton a TON of testing with armor, weapon skill, and stacking armor etc. etc. I wrote a thread about it as well (that I believe you posted in) and suffice to say, things like weapon skill, and armor debuffs increase or decrease damage RELATIVE to the armor % of the person you are attacking.

Thread here:

Spoiler:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21173

To use a really crude example. If you hit someone for 100 damage, and they have 50% armor, you are now down to 50 damage.
If you can mitigate 2% more of that armor (via debuff or WS) you now deal 52 damage (a 4% increase).

If you hit someone with 80% armor, 100 damage = 20 damage. If you mitigate 2% of that armor, you now deal 22 damage (10% increase).

So reducing their armor % by 2% in these two examples can provide a 4%-10% damage increase. When you go lower or higher on the armor %, the numbers increase value.

This is akin to saying "15 strength = 1% damage" well thats not true either. Each ability scales differently etc. etc. Anyways, hope that makes sense.

[GodlessCrom]

Lol we just spent half a page explaining the 600 number: its rough difference between the BO armor debuff and the proposed new values for BG armor debuff. Also mitigation caps at 75% IIRC: anything over that is a buffer against armor debuffs and weapon skill, as well as the armor pen inherent to skills like Murderous Wrath and Precision Strike.

[th3gatekeeper]

Lol we just spent half a page explaining the 600 number: its rough difference between the BO armor debuff and the proposed new values for BG armor debuff. Also mitigation caps at 75% IIRC: anything over that is a buffer against armor debuffs and weapon skill, as well as the armor pen inherent to skills like Murderous Wrath and Precision Strike.

Ok, and I guess what I dont understand why BO is even being brought up here...

Its a BG and Mara, and IB and WL swap. It doesnt involve the BO...

What am I missing?

@all did anyone even campared the value or the chance that wl/mara cant even save point/points and take other stuff in other mastery?

rr 70 best investiment in mastery atm =

bg debuff 1280
mara 1600

i mean 380 difference in armor debuff this is 9% armor more and since ppl are not able to link this with wep skill interation and how interact i will do it for them; lets remove 40% of this value due wep skill interation which any melee have; what remain is is 228 like 5,something %.

SO the real impact in armor debuff is 5% you are really all try to debunk the thread on this argument , this feel bias.

so 5% less real armor debuff but undefeatable and 5% but require to hit feel all pretty oksih here

This.