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[Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

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Ashoris
Posts: 141

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#61 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:59 pm

Ashoris wrote: I just dont like the idea to put even more damage on tanks in general, my personal opinion is we have too much dmg anyway on tanks and we need to focus more on the "supporting" function. - This is irrelevant. They have a DPS tree and therefore should be able to do DPS, just like Shadow Warriors had a melee tree and therefore got buffed in order to be able to mDPS. Just like Dok/WP are melee healers and in the past we tried to buff their melee heals (and will try again soon). Just like BOs have 2 other trees besides Brawler that got recently buffed (Whispering Winds and group AA haste). I can go on....
Iam sorry if i wasnt clear enough here, of course there is a "dps" tree and this dps tree should be a valid option. Its just difficult to balance because a Tank dmg tree should not be that valid that he can replace a DPS class without loosing his inbuild Tank abilities. therefore i dont understand why this is irrelevant. Btw. buffing a specific dps path on a dps class is different to buff a dps path on a tank class for overall game balance.

I know that the intention is to look at each balancing issue in isolation but while this is true for class balancing, as soon as the balance between Archetypes are potentially affected i think it is at least worth mentioning.

If iam really that wrong in my assumptions i am sorry and will not bother you here in the balance forum anymore.
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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#62 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:01 pm

Penril wrote:In case the above rule wasn't clear: If Destruction class X (Chosen) is in the frame for buffs, we are not interested in hearing how Destruction class Z (Blackguard) has fewer viable specs and must be buffed first.

This applies, of course, to KotBS and IB.

The issue is quite simple: Are Relentless/Myrmidia's Fury good skills and worth 10 points? Answer: No.
Okay, then do we discuss the classes in a vacuum? Because its a group game and we supposedly dont balance around solo play. You cannot look at one skill in isolation or one class, that is nonsensical.

My post wasn't about BG or IB needing a buff, it was about over-buffing an overperforming class. You leave posts comparing Chosen damage to Swordmaster unmoderated, so I assumed we could make analogies to other classes (something that was clarified on the first page as allowed).

Either way I agree the skills should be buffed, but I disagree with Viskags arguments regarding buffing the damage to be equivalent to Ether Dance.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

Penril
Posts: 4445

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#63 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:08 pm

Ok, let me be clear: I think Relentless/Myrmidia's Fury should NOT do as much damage as Ether Dance/THC.

However, these 2 skills suck and need some love. Certainly something better than just turning them into Spirit/Ele (we know KotBS doesn't really increase his damage with Mighty Soul, what difference will Ele damage make for MF?).

People can suggest buffing Relentless/MF to ridiculous levels (x10000 times Ether Dance's damage) if they want. They are not really breaking any rule there; in the end, ridiculous proposals will just be ignored. However, the posts I moderated broke at least 1 of the BDF rules.

I think I was the only one who gave a semi-decent counter to the OP on the first page when I mentioned that Relentless at least had a use when trying to apply CS on a single target (and honestly, it is a pretty bad argument too!).

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#64 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:19 pm

Thank you for the clarification.

Mighty Soul only affects already low damage abilities like Blazing Blade, and it is high up in a tree and therefore taking it prevents you from taking other good stuff you would want to take as an SnB or 2h knight. That doesnt mean elemental damage is bad, the tactic is bad. Totally different things.

Resists soft cap at 40%, and armor soft caps at 75% (or rather, all armor over the 75% cap is buffer against armor debuffs and WS). Just making the skills hit against resists (which these classes debuff in an uncleansable, undefendable aoe aura) means they are now hitting against a much softer target in general, and is a significant damage buff in the first place.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

Penril
Posts: 4445

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#65 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:24 pm

It's something pretty easy to test.

Someone log a KotBS, hit a target with Unbalancing Attack (armor-debuffed by a WL), then slot Mighty Soul and use UA again (with Resist debuff aura) and see if the damage increased, and in what %. That should give you an idea of how much would Ele damage increase the damage of MF.

Something tells me that a physical MF + WL armor debuff will hit harder than a Elemental MF + resist aura against most targets. For starters, the resist aura buffs your enemy for 300ish while you only debuff him for half of that (IF you put points in Glory; chances are you probly don't even have any points there if you go for Conquest/Vigilance and your resist debuff will be much worse). On the other hand, a WL can armor debuff for 1.2k+ and stack it with the KotBS Demolishing Strike.

Turning MF damage type into Elemental won't really solve anything imho. Turning Relentless into Spirit MIGHT help a bit when playing with a Sorc/Magus/Zealot M1.

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#66 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Fair enough. Testing should be done with Runefang up (and I suppose with it off, too) on the knight as well. I suspect you may be right, against everything but armor stacking tanks. Though, does Heaven's Blade resist debuff stack with aura debuff, or only with Wrath of Heaven? IIRC it is only with WoH but I dont play SM much so wouldnt know.

Also worth noting that I believe MF has lower base damage in general than Relentless, though I would have to go home and check the values in game. Presumably they would be mirrored if the buff occurs.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#67 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:53 pm

GodlessCrom wrote:
Penril wrote:In case the above rule wasn't clear: If Destruction class X (Chosen) is in the frame for buffs, we are not interested in hearing how Destruction class Z (Blackguard) has fewer viable specs and must be buffed first.

This applies, of course, to KotBS and IB.

The issue is quite simple: Are Relentless/Myrmidia's Fury good skills and worth 10 points? Answer: No.
Okay, then do we discuss the classes in a vacuum? Because its a group game and we supposedly dont balance around solo play. You cannot look at one skill in isolation or one class, that is nonsensical.

My post wasn't about BG or IB needing a buff, it was about over-buffing an overperforming class. You leave posts comparing Chosen damage to Swordmaster unmoderated, so I assumed we could make analogies to other classes (something that was clarified on the first page as allowed).

Either way I agree the skills should be buffed, but I disagree with Viskags arguments regarding buffing the damage to be equivalent to Ether Dance.
And its fine if you disagree with me, but I want to point out I did not say "buffing the damage to be equivalent to Ether Dance" I said buffing the BASE damage to be equivalent and I spelled out why those are two VERY different things.

I also (on a previous page) mentioned how the DEV team has already acknowledged Chosen and Knight auras ARE getting looked at and the official word is they will be "more focused". Everyone knows the auras are too good. So (IMO) this isnt about a total archtype balance - because that would mean we FIRST have to nerf/change the auras to then discuss "Should Relent/MF get buffed".

Rather, I look at this as "I know X nerf is coming" so I am less worried about "how does this balance the archtype and impact other archtypes".

I am answering the question Penril asked.

"Is this worth a Mastery Point to spec into". The answer is a resounding NO. Even if this ability were FREE and didnt cost a Mastery point I wouldnt use it. Its not worth the GCD time between MANY other abilities in your rotation.

So I ask myself 3 questions (For Chosen).

1) What would I need with this ability to make me use it if it were FREE.
ANSWER: Probably a simple change to Spirit damage and I might consider using it in very select circumstances (After testing its net damage versus say Ravage and how my rotations are affected due to GCDs being lost - things like Suppression/taunt/Challenge/Snare/Punt etc uptimes. If rotation gets too crowded, I may still not even use it...)

2) What would I need with this ability to make me use a MASTERY point for it?
ANSWER: Probably a slight bump in damage combined with making it Spirit - atleast at the tier 2 range.

3) If this ability were moved to TIER 3 (and swawpped with Rending) what would make me spend even MORE mastery to get it?
ANSWER: Would need to have BASE DAMAGE (not total damage) be on par with SM damage to make it be worth it.

Hopefully that helps clear things up. Also to add, DUE TO the CS nerf, and the Live Ravage+Rending nerfs (damage + Rending CD - which I am not saying are bad things) I dont think Rending now deserves (ESPECIALLY after CS nerf) to be tier 3 ability. Thus, I LIKE MY "Option 3" - Swap with Rending, Make Relentless Spirit + Buff Damage, Rending now tier 2. This opens up more UTILITY builds for 2H, OR a "damage" build for 2H - speccing up to tier 3 relentless.

Then considering "future aura changes" I think Chosen will be in a decent spot frankly... Can go more 2h utility, or 2h damage, or SNB etc.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#68 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:15 pm

Someone log on a 40 Sm and give us the tooltip numbers for ED. Same with a 40 chosen and Relentless. Because going off career builder (which I do not necessarily trust as it uses different base levels for different careers to calculate damage), ED hits 5 times for 190 each, which is 950 damage over 3 seconds. Relentless hits six times for 114, which is 684 damage over 3 seconds. So ED deals about 38% more damage than Relentless (assuming Relentless as the base integer, and ED damage as the product). So mirroring the base damage would be a buff of 38% to Relentless' damage, in addition to the damage buff granted by making it against resists as opposed to armor.

These are rough, semi-unreliable numbers (I also suck at math) and I would rather have people verify the real, in-game numbers but there ya go. Is that an acceptable buff for a skill on an 8 second cooldown (3 second channel, 8 second CD, so 5 seconds in between channels; also AA and another ability will hit immediately aftrt channel ends, backloading the potential burst) in an already overperforming class?
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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Penril
Posts: 4445

Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#69 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:17 pm

I think someone should run the test and bring evidence. Until then we are just repeating random numbers.

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen/KotBS] Relentless & Myrmidia's Fury

Post#70 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:18 pm

Spoiler:
edit: was just a +1 to penril
Could have Viskag do it, he has 40s in all three classes in question right?

EDIT: should also test to see if Heaven's Blade and Gather Your Resolve! stack. I have seen people say they do, but I am not sure. If they do, then almost no question elemental damage out performs physicaln
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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