[Black Guard] Crush Vitality

[Bozzax]

Crush Vitality
All attacks now have a 25% chance to lower target's autoattack speed by 20% for 10 seconds.

(E: Even was 25% to lower 25% at some point before the AA nerf.)

1. Issue
Crush Vitality is an ability that I feel fits the BG theme well and no one uses it anymore.

2. Why?
CV will only affect melee and debuff outgoing damage 5-6% (assuming AA is about 25-30% of total damage). To get a 50-ish % chance to debuff someone you typically would require to hit him/her 2-3 times. That means the effective gain of this ability is even more significant in its current state.

I also have a nagging feeling this tactic should have been "reviewed" but never was (see spoiler below).

3. Solution
Increase the effect to 33% (instead of 20%) for a 8-9% damage debuff on enemy melee.

Spoiler:

There’s been some heightened concern regarding Autoattack Speed modifiers recently, so we’d like to share one of the changes which will be in patch 1.3.5. We’re adjusting the manner in which these modifiers are calculated to bring them back in line, while still ensuring that they remain useful and valuable.

Currently, Autoattack Speed bonuses are a direct modifier to your swing time; for example, a 50% bonus would literally reduce your swing time by 50%, resulting in twice as many attacks (or “100% more attacks”). Instead, these modifiers are being changed to affect the number of attacks – in other words, a 50% bonus will now give you 50% more attacks. By the same token, please be aware that the numerical values of Autoattack Speed -debuffs- have been reduced as a part of this change, but this simply ensures that their overall effectiveness remains unchanged. As an example, a “50% debuff” would previously have resulted in the victim getting 33% fewer attacks, so it will now simply be displayed as a “33% debuff”.

I know that this is a “math-y” change and can be a bit unclear, so let me provide a quick example which may make it more understandable. Let’s say you had a weapon with a 3.0s swing time, and you had a 50% Autoattack Speed bonus. Previously, this would have given you a 50% reduction in your attack speed, reducing that 3.0s to 1.5s (or twice as many attacks). After this change in 1.3.5, that same 50% bonus to your 3.0s weapon will give you 50% more attacks, which will reduce your swing time to 2.0s. Likewise, a 75% bonus would previously had reduced a 3.0s speed down to 0.75s, whereas after the change, it will give you 75% more attacks (or a 1.7s swing time). As you see, this isn’t a -huge- change, but rather a very targeted adjustment which brings this bonus back to a level that we’re more comfortable with.

Going forward in the future, we plan to individually review all abilities, tactics, items, etc. which grant Autoattack Speed bonuses, and determine whether their specific values are appropriate. This change is a necessary first step before we drill down to that level of detail, since all the spot changes in the world wouldn’t help until the underlying system itself was fixed.

[Penril]

Moving to Discussions.

[TheSockPuppet]

20% is indeed a negligible decrease and i believe that at 33% this tactic may become somewhat viable in the BG AoE debuffing builds, although it would be highly situational if one takes into account that the ordies are not very keen on melee trains.

[Toldavf]

Already set on marauder mutation at 33%, I see little purpose in mirroring it.

I tend to agree but wouldn't it stack with the marauder as its a tactic based debuff? loosing 66% AA speed seems strong on paper at least especially against classes that use a 2 hander.

[Annaise16]

AA can make up 40-45% of damage for WH, WL, and slayer due to their AA haste tactics. So, the tactic could be reducing their damage by 8%-9% (depending on how the 20% reduction is implemented). That puts it almost of a par with the current incarnation of Crippling Strikes if you are fighting an Order mdps.

So, it is situational. It isn't a tactic that the BG should be using all the time.

But it's a core tactic, so it is always there if the BG needs it.

[zabis]

Already set on marauder mutation at 33%, I see little purpose in mirroring it.

Not saying this change should/shouldn't be implemented, but wouldn't mirroring it give groups more options, instead of requiring a Mara for the 33% debuff? Are there any other classes on Destro that give this big of an AA debuff?

[Coma]

Already set on marauder mutation at 33%, I see little purpose in mirroring it.

Not saying this change should/shouldn't be implemented, but wouldn't mirroring it give groups more options, instead of requiring a Mara for the 33% debuff? Are there any other classes on Destro that give this big of an AA debuff?

and if they run a mara and a bg? yeah.... no

I think he mean making them mirrored AND non stackable... that way you could have the OPTION of either have a BG or Mara with the tactic... having both wouldn't give any advantage but if would open option for the 2 to use something different... while ATM there is no reason for BG to use it and mara use something different since Mara one is much better than BG one ^^

[Penril]

Once again it seems that Mara and BG skills overlap with each other, with BG usually receiving the short end of the stick. I mean, BG requires a tactic in order to reduce AA speed for LESS than a Mara does in Savagery (and they stay in Savagery like, what, 70% of the time? Maybe more?).

I don't see a problem with those stacking btw; Order mDPS have tactics that increase their AA speed by 50% (Trained to Hunt, Push for More, Inquisitor's Fury) so you would need a BG (with tactic) + Mara to proc their debuffs at the same time just to get Order mDPS AA back to normal speeds.

Maybe it is time to reconsider some of these buffs (for both BG and Mara) in a way that it is viable (maybe even desirable) to bring both classes to your party. I am honestly getting tired of "that BG skill is useless, Mara has a much better one...".

[GodlessCrom]

Yeah I basically stay in Savagery until target is <35%ish hp, then swap to Brutality for Pulverising Blow+Guillotine. Occasionally may swap to Brut to sneak some Impales in there, but honestly not worth the trouble a lot of the time.

Problem with this tactic is that Im not sure where you are gonna fit it in, for either 2h or SnB. BG already has so many good tactics, some of which are downright essential, that the buff for this tactic would need to be pretty good in order for it to edge out some others that compete for the same slot.

[Bozzax]

It is a grp tactic you trade dps/surviv for dmg reduction on others problem with this one it is to weak