[Sorc] - Black Horror

[Aurandilaz]

Problem:

Black Horror: Requires 5 points investment into Path of Destruction (AoE tree), does base 316 corp aoe damage within 20 feet of target and debuffs targets hit Initiative by 50.
At rank 40 with 15 points into PoD, the ability does debuff Init by 80, and damage is about 661.

In comparison, Shattered Shadows dmg is about 737 (76 difference - difference becomes larger when taking into account Sorc crit increase mechanic)
Meanwhile for Init debuff purposes, Squig Herder Conq set bonus is 100 Init Debuff, which triggers easily when spamming AoE.

Now why would you even spec for Black Horror? Well most people might not do that, especially if you are not RR +50 or +60 with few extra Mastery points to throw around when going for AoE spec on Sorc. Even then, most Sorcs might not bother using Black Horror at all, considering it has same 3 sec cast as Shattered Shadows, less damage and most likely the init debuff will be wasted too as other classes do it easier and better. Not to forget random Black Ork Init debuff stealing.
The only occasions I myself bother hitting BH is when I have Shatter Limbs on me and cannot use ANY other ability (rare), or when I do ranged bombing rotation on enemy oil or other super slow target where you can afford to stand still 3 seconds, and even then I do 1 BH followed by maybe 5-10 Shattered Shadows on oil, as one init debuff is enough and SS simply does better damage.

Suggestion:
Change the Black Horror base 50 - (80 at full 15 points) Initiative debuff into a 15% disrupt debuff.
Classes like SH/SW/engi have Pierce Defences (15 block/dodge/parry debuff tactic), and Sorc mirror class BW has Flashfire which means that enemy Disrupt only feeds their potential to do more damage. Sorc in their AoE spec lacks such tools, and while they could go get Word of Pain tactic from middle tree and run a tactic that helps ST Willpower debuff, it doesn't help much when you are fighting multiple enemies and doing AoE. This has resulted in Sorcs falling somewhat behind in the AoE warband potential, alongside with losing Infernal Wave synergy with Chop Fasta, and having lost "proc meta" potential earlier this year. Recent changed to defensive mechanics have made AoE in general slightly more challenging for Sorcs.


Would this be Overpowered? No. A Sorc would either need to stand still for 3 seconds, find a target with low disrupt to allow BH to hit in the first place, and then hope there are enough targets within 20 feet area that do not all disrupt/block the effect before it even lands. And if Sorc comes to close combat range and uses Close Quarters, it is still a 1.5 second cast, which means less damage done via other abilities (VERY high opportunity cost - every Sorc knows the futility of trying to do a 1.5 second cast in the middle of large fight), prone to set backs and still has to pass initial target disrupt check before trying to pass other nearby targets disrupt/block check.
The ability is something you have to purchase with mastery points. It has long cast time and in its current form its one of the abilities you most likely never see in use.
Furthermore, Black Horror in its current form places a Curse on the target, meaning a WP or RP can cleanse it. And Warrior Priest does have tactic Exalted Defences, where upon defending, they gain +20% healing, and as well a +10 Disrupt tactic. Occasional BH actually landing through would still not be catastrophic.

Even then, a 15% disrupt debuff only makes a slight dent in the enemy ranks that most likely are under HoldTheLine +45% disrupt buff, or have healers with relatively high Willpower having solid Disrupt in the first place to begin with.

Would this change 6v6 meta? Most likely not. You most likely won't even bring a ranged caster to smallscale fighting, nor have them spec into AoE tree nor have them use abilities that require 3 seconds of standing still. It would only make a slight difference in warband vs warband fighting and help Sorcs keep up with the other rdps bombing classes after all the recent changes.

So suggestion
A) -15% disrupt debuff
B) -10% disrupt debuff in case -15% lowers general defences too much (which it does not if target has 1-2 tanks around with HTL

Other:
C) And in case A) is too much for 5 point ability, it could be discussed whether it should move higher in Path of Destruction tree to reflect increased utility.
D) Another way to reflect gained utility would be having higher cost of use: change AP cost to the somewhat heavier price of 50 Dark Magic

[Coma]

Spoiler:

You want an entire tactics worth of utility on a spammable aoe for free? On an ability at the bottom of a tree?

Nope.

With that in mind feel free to discuss Black Horror

there is actualy quite the difference between the proposed additional effect and pierce defense:

1) pierce defense reduce 3 type of avoidance while the proposed change to BH only affect 1 (that is also the one missing from pierce defense making it not a substitute but a complementary).

2) pierce defense proc on succesful defense while BH would proc on failed defence, this mean that pierce defense is more lakily to affect target that have higer avoidance and on wich the effect is more remarkable while BH is more likely to not affect target with high disrupt, in this way it will help against target with avarage/low disrupt and be of low effectivness against target with high disrupt, those that will disrupt a lot will still disrupt a lot.... those that you could hit often enough will become easier to hit.

3) pierce defense as a tactic is applied to all attacks, BH on the other end is single skill with a 3 second casting time, not the one you would like to spam (especially since it also have lower damage than SS).

4) BH is a mastery skill, low level yes but still mastery, if you'r going for single target or DoT build you have little to no reason to invest 5 point in AoE mastery, Pierce defense instead is a CORE tactic that can be used regardless of build used.



With this said, 15% reduced disrupt is indeed powerfull, adding a CD to the skill would not be out of bound as well as rising up it's position on the mastery... after all the skill above it is the exact mirror of the BW skill that is positioned ar the mastery level of BH so there should not be the problem of a powerfull skill being lowered to a too much accessibile position (unless this problem is recognized with BW as well).



If all this is still not enough to reconsider, than what about changing the debuff from initiative to willpower? it would have a similar effect while not going to step on the field of pierce defense, I also don't rember other AoE willpower debuff (but this could be my memory failing me ^^'), still I think that 80 will be a little little, upgrading it to 100 could still feel worth, supreior values could be considered if paired with a reduction in damage (turning the skill in an effective "AoE willpower debuff with attached damage" rahther than "AoE damage with attached debuff").

I'm ashamed to have forgotten the requirement for a RR40 character of the discussed class, pls ignore my post ^^'

[Asherdoom]

dont ever hope to gt any uise of sorcerer aoe tree mate. just spec single target and enjoy like is this now

[lefze]

15% disrupt debuff sounds reasonable, but doubt it would become a much used skill anyways outside of M2/Close quarters, so it needs a bit more love than only an additional debuff.

As there has been discussions about sorc staying at 100 DM all the time, I like the idea of giving it a DM cost, but it should also be instant cast and be given a cooldown and reduced duration on the debuff. This MIGHT make sorcs viable for warbands again and also give us a bit more fluid gameplay for AoE.

This would also give ST specs the option to sacrifice either HoR or swell of gloom, which I find completely reasonable, would be against moving the skill up the tree unless the tradeoff and added choices are seen as a negative.

[Aurandilaz]

15% disrupt debuff sounds reasonable, but doubt it would become a much used skill anyways outside of M2/Close quarters, so it needs a bit more love than only an additional debuff.

As there has been discussions about sorc staying at 100 DM all the time, I like the idea of giving it a DM cost, but it should also be instant cast and be given a cooldown and reduced duration on the debuff. This MIGHT make sorcs viable for warbands again and also give us a bit more fluid gameplay for AoE.

This would also give ST specs the option to sacrifice either HoR or swell of gloom, which I find completely reasonable, would be against moving the skill up the tree unless the tradeoff and added choices are seen as a negative.

As far as I understand, without client control the ability cast time cannot be modified, so it has to stay at 3 seconds. Which means, for 3 seconds of standing still, it would have to of similar effectiveness as Doombolt (massive ST damage) or SS with massive AoE damage, yet in its current form it is neither.

Makine the debuff duration shorter is very much understandable.

I like the idea of being able to use BH with some sort of utility even in ST specs, it still has a 3 second cast time and would require the Sorc to spend 6 points that are not in the usual DoT or Dmg tree, meaning less gains in those paths for base damages, though it might be kinda potent on the other hand.

[lefze]

As far as I understand, without client control the ability cast time cannot be modified, so it has to stay at 3 seconds.

Didn't they alter cast times in the AM/Shammy experimental mode though? Kinda hard they can't alter cast times when they can alter cooldowns and most other conditions on abilities, I might be completely wrong here though. But anyways, there's a reason no one uses doombolt/SS in normal conditions, it's just not viable to stand still that long. Which is exactly why my opinion on the spell is that it needs a major rework and not a small buff/tweak.

But It's just one mans opinion, and my opinion is that sorc is seriously lacking in almost every aspect, and having to crutch on one-tick shadow knives for example for instacast aoe is just way out of balance when comparing to BW. Right now I have a feeling that even if they implemented your change but with let's say a 30% disrupt debuff it still wouldn't change the meta. Sorcs simply need an actual rotation other than spamming ice spikes/infernal to be able to cast surging pain, one more instant spell would go a long way, even if it had around a 10 sec CD. Now compare that to flashfire and we would still be a mile behind, but would have something at least.

[Aurandilaz]

As far as I understand, without client control the ability cast time cannot be modified, so it has to stay at 3 seconds.

Didn't they alter cast times in the AM/Shammy experimental mode though? Kinda hard they can't alter cast times when they can alter cooldowns and most other conditions on abilities, I might be completely wrong here though. But anyways, there's a reason no one uses doombolt/SS in normal conditions, it's just not viable to stand still that long. Which is exactly why my opinion on the spell is that it needs a major rework and not a small buff/tweak.

But It's just one mans opinion, and my opinion is that sorc is seriously lacking in almost every aspect, and having to crutch on one-tick shadow knives for example for instacast aoe is just way out of balance when comparing to BW. Right now I have a feeling that even if they implemented your change but with let's say a 30% disrupt debuff it still wouldn't change the meta. Sorcs simply need an actual rotation other than spamming ice spikes/infernal to be able to cast surging pain, one more instant spell would go a long way, even if it had around a 10 sec CD. Now compare that to flashfire and we would still be a mile behind, but would have something at least.

Well I agree with you, Sorc is very much out of optimal Destro warband meta. Which is what actually motivated me enough to bother writing a proposal in the first place, the hope that the one entirely useless ability in the AoE tree might become semi-viable, if not actually potent enough to become part of typical rotation in warband vs warband fighting.
3 second is very long time to stand still, but for now without client control we can only hope for limited changes. Ideally BH would be something instacast though with far greater cost and lesser effect, but devs have limited modding arsenal for now.

I however remain hopeful that even with some tweaking to BH it may be turned into a useful ability, that is worth standing still for 3 seconds despite the danger involved with that. It may not close the gap between Sorc and BW aoe potential, but it's a step towards that direction, and eventually I believe BW will also get adjusted bit downwards closer to Sorc. (client control one day...)
What a -15 disrupt BH however offers is increase of Magus utility too for WB scale, as well as increased Zealot use, so it wouldn't just aim to push Sorc back to WB meta, but allows the other intelligence based AoE damage dealers a spot in the sun.

Another possible result with -15 disrupt BH is that it could allow Sorc-Magus synergy in 6man, or even Zealot/Shaman. (thought 3 sec cast would require good favourable conditions to pull it off)
Currently Destro is somewhat favouring melee meta (for various reasons), but the possibility of bringing a Sorc that brings both Infernal Gift and Black Horror to assist other Int based Dps is something that would perhaps open up new group synergies.

[Stmichael1989]

I know I don't have a R40 sorc or BW, but my 2 cents is only on the premise of why the OP feels the ability should be changed.

The fact that SH can apply a similar debuff by first gearing high piece conqueror (which precludes them from wearing any other set pieces for stacking set bonuses) and then spamming AoE does not sound like a clearly superior option to the bomb spec sorc. The initiative debuff is a proc, so it is not guaranteed to be up when you need it. SH AoE is also a tricky thing to pull off, and as mentioned earlier, requires a set bonus.

Feel free to ignore this next part if I don't meet the r40 sorc requirement, but I'm also with Torque on this one. 15% disrupt debuff is almost as good as Pierce Defenses, only you're getting a guaranteed application and require no tactic slot for it. That is insanely good for an already very strong class.

[Aurandilaz]

I know I don't have a R40 sorc or BW, but my 2 cents is only on the premise of why the OP feels the ability should be changed.

The fact that SH can apply a similar debuff by first gearing high piece conqueror (which precludes them from wearing any other set pieces for stacking set bonuses) and then spamming AoE does not sound like a clearly superior option to the bomb spec sorc. The initiative debuff is a proc, so it is not guaranteed to be up when you need it. SH AoE is also a tricky thing to pull off, and as mentioned earlier, requires a set bonus.

Feel free to ignore this next part if I don't meet the r40 sorc requirement, but I'm also with Torque on this one. 15% disrupt debuff is almost as good as Pierce Defenses, only you're getting a guaranteed application and require no tactic slot for it. That is insanely good for an already very strong class.

Well as you surely know from personal experience when it comes to Destro organized warband action, a SH is needed for Bad Gas, and then more Squigs are added for the in general good damage output that is of physical type and has easy cast conditions, we in TUP do our best to run with 1-2 SH and Phalanx is usually seen running anywhere between 3-8 SHs because Squigs are quite potent for organized warband action.
At this point it is 8 months since Conq patch released, and it can be assumed that any experienced SH player is now running the gear set alongside with the Init debuff, because it happens to be very good for WB vs WB fighting.

However, even if your premade warband did not have a single SH with Conq gear in it, it would still result in abysmal use of BH. You simply cannot afford to stand still 3 seconds in the opening phase (easily close to 4 sec with some setbacks expected) or even 1.5 at dangerous close range where your chance of being interrupted is high and AoE flying around makes it closer to 2 seconds if not more due to setbacks.
The current cast time is long, and has to compete with 3 sec Shattered Shadows, which in the end deals more raw damage.

Would be interesting if some long playing Order characters share their combat log statistics and provide information regarding how often they have encountered Black Horror cast, I would say it is quite a rare event.
Unless the target is non mobile (oil) or you are doing FM M2 + CQ SS spam and get Shatter Limbs, then you might do a desperate BH because of lack of other options available. Otherwise realistically speaking you won't be using BH in your AoE rotation as a Sorc.

Even before SH Conq set was added to the game, I doubt many Sorcs were using BH due to its long cast time and lower base dmg when compared to SS. The ability was bad before, and now its just redundant.
The idea behind the proposal is to bring some utility to BH and have that utility of such scale that it becomes worth standing still 3 seconds instead of actively doing other AoE, because the reward is worth it.
From my own subjective bias, even if the -15% disrupt buff was implemented, I would only see myself casting BH in very rare cases due to the tedious cast time. With -10% implementation, I would probably myself avoid BH as usual unless I absolutely can find a safe spot in the thick of melee and cast a 1.5 sec BH at the frontline hoping to find a target that does not disrupt the initial hit.

It's hard finding a "balanced" Black Horror spot, as with 3 sec cast it has to be something worth casting (still below SS in base damage), meaning you lose ~3 GCDs that could be spent otherwise meaning a drop in AoE pressure output for the Warband. If the adjusted new BH does not provide better return than using 3 GCDs on other abilities, it will still not be worth using and remains in the category of "meh" abilities.
Hopefully more Sorcs with Warband experience will comment on what debuff value would be between "meh" - "okay" and "hell yeah".

[lefze]

I know I don't have a R40 sorc or BW, but my 2 cents is only on the premise of why the OP feels the ability should be changed.

The fact that SH can apply a similar debuff by first gearing high piece conqueror (which precludes them from wearing any other set pieces for stacking set bonuses) and then spamming AoE does not sound like a clearly superior option to the bomb spec sorc. The initiative debuff is a proc, so it is not guaranteed to be up when you need it. SH AoE is also a tricky thing to pull off, and as mentioned earlier, requires a set bonus.

Feel free to ignore this next part if I don't meet the r40 sorc requirement, but I'm also with Torque on this one. 15% disrupt debuff is almost as good as Pierce Defenses, only you're getting a guaranteed application and require no tactic slot for it. That is insanely good for an already very strong class.

First of all, the SH proc also gives the SH 100 ballistic skill making stacking setbonuses subpar in comparison. Second thing is, that even if SH is currently subpar to SW it is still THE highest damage bomber destro has, and requires litterally one button to have constant, huge AoE pressure, while sorc has nothing really. The idea of sorcs being a playable class in warbands is completely wrong after recent changes, because it simply isn't. You could take one sorc and sure it might add something once or twice every 5 hours, but sorc only has close quarters/M2 to enable them to actually deal damage, and you can go hours between situations where you are actually able to pull one of those off successfully.

As for 15% disrupt debuff being almost as good as pierce defense is bullshit, pierce defense is truly a 100% uptime DUAL debuff. The fact of the matter is that when bombing you will always melt the frontline first, making the block reduction a major part of the tactic, while here we are talking about a debuff that will only benefit the sorc itself for the most part as maguses can't really do damage in a warband. And the three second cast time is a major inhibitor, you can't ignore it. And the statement of sorcs being a very strong class is something clueless players pull out of their asses, it's just not right. These days we MIGHT have one sorc in warband, but this is NOT because it's even close to optimal.