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[Black Orc] Keep it Goin'!

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.

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Tesq
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Re: [Black Orc] Keep it Goin'!

Post#21 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:14 pm

i was not refering to the need of long punt as if we would like but more to , there are enough alredy imo, 2 tanks alredy provide a long punt, do other tanks job would just make able to cut out 1 tank and make easier groups comps; aka too many tools on 1 basket. What happen when you not so good at assist chosen can be replaced by a BO since he can now long punt? BO+BG is pretty on par or even better with assist than ch+bo. And even if ti was the opposite then it will cut out BG out again.

just saying it have the extreme to mess with realm internal balance and a bit of externaly too.
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nelsonus
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Re: [Black Orc] Keep it Goin'!

Post#22 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:32 pm

That is a fair assessment. I think option #2 should be taken off the table, but I still think the tactic should be altered to become viable.

Another option:
Big Slash will now snare all targets knocked back by 40% for 5 seconds. Cooldown increased to 15 seconds.

This would add an aoe snare into the brawler line at the cost of extra 5 seconds cooldown on your punt, and a tactic slot.

-adds another way for AOE snare on BO, which was nerfed with big brawlin
-15s cooldown will not allow you to permanent snare all targets, even with Big Brawlin slotted
-snare is tied to immunity of knockback, so the ability doesn't just become another way to snare.
-aoe knockback impacts immunities, so BO's will have to be careful when to apply. (This change won't make it a auto-slot tactic).
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Nefarian78
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Re: [Black Orc] Keep it Goin'!

Post#23 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:06 pm

nelsonus wrote:That is a fair assessment. I think option #2 should be taken off the table, but I still think the tactic should be altered to become viable.

Another option:
Big Slash will now snare all targets knocked back by 40% for 5 seconds. Cooldown increased to 15 seconds.

This would add an aoe snare into the brawler line at the cost of extra 5 seconds cooldown on your punt, and a tactic slot.

-adds another way for AOE snare on BO, which was nerfed with big brawlin
-15s cooldown will not allow you to permanent snare all targets, even with Big Brawlin slotted
-snare is tied to immunity of knockback, so the ability doesn't just become another way to snare.
-aoe knockback impacts immunities, so BO's will have to be careful when to apply. (This change won't make it a auto-slot tactic).
What's the point of having ANOTHER AoE snare? as you said, we already have Big Brawlin for our AoE snare, even if atm the tactic is absolutely not worth it, the devs can change it in the future to make it worth slotting. There's no need for mirrors of other tactics with different flavors.

Also, one of the main reasons why Big Brawlin was nerfed was because BOs had to run the tactic 99% of the time, forcing the class to become a snare bot. Your proposal encourages that kind of gameplay for BOs, only this time it requires 2 tactics instead of 1.

Beside that, a tactic like that is just wrong for Brawler Path. Brawler is the Path focused on 2h, single target pressure and damage, Boss or Toughest is more appropriate for a tactic like that. Everyone seems to forget that we should also respect the Path's identity when making proposals.

nelsonus
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Re: [Black Orc] Keep it Goin'!

Post#24 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:11 pm

@Nefarian78
I disagree that it forces a snare bot. It just adds a snare to the knockback, giving it more teeth as a disruption ability by snaring the targets that are knocked back.

It would be a different snare. Different tactic, different spec line. In essence, it would give the option for differently specc'd BO's to access an minor aoe snare.

I also disagree it would be wrong for the brawler path. The current tactic affects big swing, and aoe ability. Why would changing HOW the tactic affects the ability not respect the paths identity? Big swing is part of the Brawler line, you can assume that it is there to be a disruption ability. My proposed change to the tactic would add value to the disruption to make the ability used more than it currently is.
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Acidic
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Re: [Black Orc] Keep it Goin'!

Post#25 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:24 am

From my point of view adding the snare and increasing the CD would place the tactic into such a situational tactic that it just won’t get used.
Tactics are for the whole fight and making it 15 sec cool down would ensure that you never have slotted.

nelsonus
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Re: [Black Orc] Keep it Goin'!

Post#26 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:06 pm

I'd like to ask why not. Punt is situational as it is, I don't use on cool down except in rare opportunities, so am extra 5s doesn't put it into useless category.
A lot of tactics are situational in nature. I don't think that should prevent a change in this one.
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Nefarian78
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Re: [Black Orc] Keep it Goin'!

Post#27 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:41 pm

nelsonus wrote:@Nefarian78
I disagree that it forces a snare bot. It just adds a snare to the knockback, giving it more teeth as a disruption ability by snaring the targets that are knocked back.

It would be a different snare. Different tactic, different spec line. In essence, it would give the option for differently specc'd BO's to access an minor aoe snare.

I also disagree it would be wrong for the brawler path. The current tactic affects big swing, and aoe ability. Why would changing HOW the tactic affects the ability not respect the paths identity? Big swing is part of the Brawler line, you can assume that it is there to be a disruption ability. My proposed change to the tactic would add value to the disruption to make the ability used more than it currently is.
I didn't say it forces us into a snare bot, but it certainly encourages it. Giving option to differently specced BO's to access a snare isn't needed, because if you wanted a snare you'd just go for Boss and take Big Brawlin' (assuming the tactic is worth it)

A tactic like that is wrong for Brawler imo, because it encourages CC - Tank oriented builds to spec into brawler to get the snare, instead of encouraging 2h - offensive builds to spec into the tree that's supposed to be about them.

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Re: [Black Orc] Keep it Goin'!

Post#28 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:23 pm

nelsonus wrote:I'd like to ask why not. Punt is situational as it is, I don't use on cool down except in rare opportunities, so am extra 5s doesn't put it into useless category.
A lot of tactics are situational in nature. I don't think that should prevent a change in this one.
The typical time in oRVR when u need to break apart blobs they are not small blobs. takes more than one swipe at them to break them or hold them from a ridge. The 10sec timer is just about right, 15 even with a slow or punt with target mega punt still wont cut the mustard for me, as order keep comming like ants half the time.

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ragafury
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Re: [Black Orc] Keep it Goin'!

Post#29 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:52 pm

the rework of a tactic shouldn't result in an autopick up like eg. Big Brawlin was before nerf, nor a useless one.

I can't see myself picking up that tactic for any situation.

in smallscale you want the DPS tactics mostly and perhabs "10% block" or "10 parry + flat %dmg" depending on specc and play SNB or 2hd.
SNB has some flexibility in the tactic menu. 2hd hasn't. you are almost forced to pick specifics if you want to do meaningfull asisst dmg and stay alive while doing so. even SNB BO is not really brought to those fights for it's utility.

If you want a superpunt you bring BG anyway. it gets the CC job done much better.
Also you can't hand out immunities for free to everyone just because you want to punt a target off.

check some 6v6 vids and count the AOE KBs used in full 15 minute duration matches. it's same/less than 3. using a tactic slot for a skill you use on average every 5 minutes is a waste. (referring to matches of a similar skill level)

in largescale you have a luxury slot. contesters to cut would be Unstoppable Juggernaut, wounds, rugged, block, block pump or if you are still running it BB as examples, maybe AP tactic if you are left without a zealot. rest is also almost "forced" in a premade enviroment,..

I don't see myself running it there neither.
160 toughness, every 20 second CC break, snare with an ok uptime (new BB) or a tactic for a skill which I shouldn't use in first place unless it's called for it by WB leader to coreograph the fight / redirect it into an more advantagous situation.

same goes for the suggested snare component, if you want to snare more than two targets sync'd than get BB. it's way more effective cause it doesn't grant immunites, doesn't punt them out of range afterwards, and grants disorient as icying on the cake.

so, if there is a redesign, the time spent on the redesign shouldn't be useless or spent on a cony catcher for newcomers / newplayers like eg. "Bring 'em on".
Redesgning an underwhelming tactic to an underwhelming tactic will result in another redesign in the future.

also putting it on a 15 sec CD is odd. worst case would be a 17.4 sec CD if you have to plan cycle. a 5 sec CD extender would make it 22.4 seconds in worst worst case.

also I gotta agree with Nefarian 78. it misses the core theme of the tree totally.
the theme is ST DPS, the ways to stay on target to gurantee that ST DPS (trip'em up, NIDF), pressure (NIDF) and 2hd. the original tactic tried to turn the AOE KB into a damage tool.
changing it into a CC tool fails imo the theme and betrays it's heritage.
Also BO is not really a utility tank in it's core even though it has utility.

I already stated, I don't have a counter suggestion to redesign the tactic while aiming for Big Slash still. imo it has to target or become something else. a passive stat stick like Guud at Big Choppin, or it has to target warbellows in a really generalistic way or it has to aim for another ability and ramp up dmg.

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Tesq
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Re: [Black Orc] Keep it Goin'!

Post#30 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:09 am

Spoiler:
can we even do counter proposal? it always get said yo do you own proposal, personally bo always lack avoidance in 2h it got told and re told but a tactic was never fixed for that purpose ....
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-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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