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Daemonic Withering/Coordinated Fire - Undefendable/Reduced CD

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: Daemonic Withering/Coordinated Fire - Undefendable/Reduced CD[Close Date Apr 21]

Post#61 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:22 pm

Tesq wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:59 am how many disrupt order side?

-empire 10% tactic(on 4 diff classes)
-SM 10/20 + 5 disruopt increase (skill+ tactic)
-WL 10% disrupt increase (tactic)
I think you'd be hard pressed to find people that use any of these except for Aethyric Armor
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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: Daemonic Withering/Coordinated Fire - Undefendable/Reduced CD[Close Date Apr 21]

Post#62 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:46 pm

my point is great skill need more than normal drawback.
you think it has serious drawback.
I'm saying drawback is on right level.
15% dmg+ from all sources,
from long range rdps.
can't you see the OPness in here?

and ofc archetype is relevant.
don't be the choppa hitting deftard tank.
casters hitting healer is somewhat similar.
that's the new thing.

You keep mentioning disrupt so i have to bring that up again.
I gave you range VS 20% avoidance theory.
not sure what devs think but that's quite convincing mechanic.
rdps got restrains now.
not many casters have accepted new concept yet.
they're still at anger or bargaining stage of loss i think.

how about prove your case with actual number of disrupt rate against various targets?
( cuz 20s/20s + tactic slot is hardly a drawback. It's just price )
not comparing with old mechanic
and not backed up by angry casters.
their whine will bury your valid point( if there is any )
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Daemonic Withering/Coordinated Fire - Undefendable/Reduced CD[Close Date Apr 21]

Post#63 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:06 pm

You make good points, anarchy, but the difference between a skill and a tactic is that you get a plethora of different skills to use, while you only get 4 tactic slots: tactic that only benefits one ability on a 20 sec CD vs normal caster abilities. Noone is disputing the new disrupt changes, and we have come to accept them, but this isn't to say that certain abilities/skills can't be fine-tuned in light of said changes.

Also, '15% dmg+ from all sources,
from long range rdps.
can't you see the OPness in here?'

- doesn't constitute a valid argument. How is it OP? In what environment would this be OP? Has it been proven to be OP thus far? To the best of my knowledge, the answer is no. If you are referring to ungrouped or unorganised environments, then this is not a valid argument for balance discussion: anything can be deemed OP, even Wrath WP, in environments where tanks don't guard, healers don't heal, and players don't anticipate burst sequences from Magi/Engineers.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: Daemonic Withering/Coordinated Fire - Undefendable/Reduced CD[Close Date Apr 21]

Post#64 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:56 pm

BW = FoR procs, kill rotation (10s-ish), big corp debuff (0s)
WL = big armor debuff (10s) out hdebuff (10s), mobility (assist), burst
SW = ranged hdebuff (0s), x2 inidebuff (0s, tactic), 15% avoidance debuff
Slayer = Aoe cd inc (20s), inc hdebuff (10s), 50% melee avoidance debuff, pressure like no other
WH = big 240 toughness/strength/weaponskill debuff (10s), hdebuff (10s), burst, stealth

Engie = +15% inc damage debuff (20s), 15% avoidance debuff

Why pick an engie with 20s cd? All other dps enjoy 10s or less for important stuff.

Making abilities undefendable mostly buffs 1v1 where these classes already do well.
Last edited by Bozzax on Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Daemonic Withering/Coordinated Fire - Undefendable/Reduced CD[Close Date Apr 21]

Post#65 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:23 pm

dansari wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:22 pm
Tesq wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:59 am how many disrupt order side?

-empire 10% tactic(on 4 diff classes)
-SM 10/20 + 5 disruopt increase (skill+ tactic)
-WL 10% disrupt increase (tactic)
I think you'd be hard pressed to find people that use any of these except for Aethyric Armor
why?

-wl one buff due guardian changes i presume both wl defensivly and then pet offensivly so this tactic have an use
-empire classes in small scale can ista slot/swap it since is core vs magic caster (which are 2/3 ond estruction vs 1/3 on orderside so better trade off due tactic protect vs more classes than just 1) and both in small/orvr is a viable tactic.
-Sm disrupt tactic can be easily be slot and it will it just build customization and rr dependant as higer level give more mastery poitn and opens more spec or accessory choice. There is nothing coutnerproductive in slot the tactic if you go up in that mastery the tactic itself is pretty good; 20% disrupt vs magus and sorc
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Scrilian
Posts: 1570

Re: Daemonic Withering/Coordinated Fire - Undefendable/Reduced CD[Close Date Apr 21]

Post#66 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:34 pm

What is this core 10% empire tactic you speak of? I'd say, empire classes are already pressed for tactic slots.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Daemonic Withering/Coordinated Fire - Undefendable/Reduced CD[Close Date Apr 21]

Post#67 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:13 pm

Scrilian wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:34 pm What is this core 10% empire tactic you speak of? I'd say, empire classes are already pressed for tactic slots.
what the crap have to do crit increase with dodge/disrupt difficulty difference bewtween magus /engi ?? im speaking of gilded shield/shield of faith and such all things which can potentially nullify any change done if solution 2 is used while actually benefith engi which alredy have less problems overall than magus in small scale.
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Renork
Posts: 1208

Re: Daemonic Withering/Coordinated Fire - Undefendable/Reduced CD[Close Date Apr 21]

Post#68 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:15 pm

anarchypark wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:46 pm my point is great skill need more than normal drawback.
you think it has serious drawback.
I'm saying drawback is on right level.
15% dmg+ from all sources,
from long range rdps.
can't you see the OPness in here?

and ofc archetype is relevant.
don't be the choppa hitting deftard tank.
casters hitting healer is somewhat similar.
that's the new thing.

You keep mentioning disrupt so i have to bring that up again.
I gave you range VS 20% avoidance theory.
not sure what devs think but that's quite convincing mechanic.
rdps got restrains now.
not many casters have accepted new concept yet.
they're still at anger or bargaining stage of loss i think.

how about prove your case with actual number of disrupt rate against various targets?
( cuz 20s/20s + tactic slot is hardly a drawback. It's just price )
not comparing with old mechanic
and not backed up by angry casters.
their whine will bury your valid point( if there is any )
I'm trying to still understand why you think this is 'overpowered'. It would be phenomenal if you could share your experience with the class itself and inform everyone here how you use it and why exactly would making this change make your rotation and contribution to your group and/or warband so extremely overpowered. The class has always had this tactic and truth be told the real issue here is the disrupt rate, but since that is not changing any time soon, then Peter provided a good proposal to circumvent the problem. Based on your responses it does not sound like you play the class at all.

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Koha
Posts: 178

Re: Daemonic Withering/Coordinated Fire - Undefendable/Reduced CD[Close Date Apr 21]

Post#69 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:03 pm

I would prefer to leave it as it is or go for solution 1 for two reasons:

1. It is independent to dodge VS disrupt differences = equal buff for both sides.
Dodge being easier to bypass : no tactic nor ability increases dodge except hold the line + pierce defense tactic can highly reduce it. (I know engies are tactic slot starving but still). CF will even further debuff dodge chance by 5%. Renown dodge is negated.

2. Solution 2 would mean a global increase of damage

It could also stay as it is +15% dmg from all sources for 21sec is strong.
Spoiler:
Bump target and nuke it on the fly... is it what we want as gameplay ? If SW scout stance is getting buffed as another tread is requesting... the era of rdps is coming .. time for clay pigeon shooting.
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Renork
Posts: 1208

Re: Daemonic Withering/Coordinated Fire - Undefendable/Reduced CD[Close Date Apr 21]

Post#70 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:12 pm

Koha wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:03 pm I would prefer to leave it as it is or go for solution 1 for two reasons:

1. It is independent to dodge VS disrupt differences = equal buff for both sides.
Dodge being easier to bypass : no tactic nor ability increases dodge except hold the line + pierce defense tactic can highly reduce it. (I know engies are tactic slot starving but still). CF will even further debuff dodge chance by 5%. Renown dodge is negated.

2. Solution 2 would mean a global increase of damage

It could also stay as it is +15% dmg from all sources for 21sec is strong.

Bump target and nuke it on the fly... is it what we want as gameplay ? If SW scout stance is getting buffed as another tread is requesting... the era of rdps is coming .. time for clay pigeon shooting.
Several people have brought up a good point about dodge versus disrupt and I do agree. Looking at it from that perspective it would seem solution 1 is the better option, since both eng/mag would be receiving the benefit of the tactic equally there's no room for "You made this class stronger with the change versus the other" complaints.

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