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Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

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peterthepan3
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#41 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:39 pm

Magus is literally the bane of tanks, lol.
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Tesq
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#42 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:42 pm

Raefar wrote:
Tesq wrote:
Raefar wrote:The only problem I have with all this is everyone keeps thinking of how the current disrupt effects BW and Sorc but disregard dot classes like Magus/Shammy/AM.

I think most of this could be fixed with just placing a soft cap on disrupt.
a cap would hit tanks which deserve to be tanky if spec for it and if is required for rvr.

cleary the "solution" need to hit what is wrong between archtype not be just a bland "general" nerf to disrupt.
Tanks are still tanky without the ability to shrugging off 70-80% of the spells cast at them. Tanks already have high HP, toughness, resist and low crit rate. So why would the need to take 0 damage from 70-80% of spells cast at them?
because if they dont they wont survive in rvr, potentially 1 tank need to survive the whole zerg to make the tank+guard meccanic and the melee possible; otherwise you have pew pew-rpds trade domain.

you may think is too much then lets say thay you take hits worth 30k dmg with 70% avoidance leave you with 10k dmg =tank dead.

the more hits you take eventually you will arrive to be dead anyway--> logically increasing the number of hits will kill anything no matter what.....since the durability of any tank cant reach a mitigaiton so high to coutner an infinite number of ppl then avoidance is a stright coutner to zerg because avoid 1 hit = 0 dmg. Tank have generally more avoidance than healer and dps for a reason. Did you even play anyother game where there is not an avoidance so heavy as war system? it always turn out as pew pew trade hits. Warhammer in this is quite perfect as it allow avoidance +guard to move things closer in enough time to do something. It's also why most aoe rdps ability have close range.
eventually anything have to move melee to be effective(risk for rewards) and defensive stuff have also coutners indeed most of times def stuff have more counter than offensive one....

and now that i explained all of that the most basic reason; tank that trade dmg for tankyness; cant kill

cant kill=being uselss unless your sturdyness is worth something which it is, a tank deserve to be tanky it is called tank for a reason that's why i laught at rock paper scissor talk...this is not rock /paper/scissor. What you do when the tank line collaspe?

answer is you wipe, tank if specced for that deserve all the tankyness they want because that's all they gona have. And about they being alredy tanky enough that's not true at all the more the tanks are hard to kill the more funs are the fights , more interesting and hard won in Orvr. As exemple it goes from not be able to get closer enemy and put pressure to completlky ingore enemy pressure and have all a greater margin to impact the fights; it comes down then to cc skill /positioning in rvr while in sc is more target pick/focus.

Also if tank do not die then wb do not die vs zerg which mesan that:

1wb vs 1wb = 1wb vs xwb in term of dmg soaking potential which leads to promote skill since tank will be turdy you will be able to win if you are good enough; that's why aoe was capped at 9 ppl. You have 8 tanks in wb that can soak all the enemy aoe so it cames down to skill /positioning and not reckless aoe random spam so that inferior number of ppl can win a superior one, provide enough skill to pull it out. This also allow spearheads tactic which would be impossible other way.
Martok wrote:
Tesq wrote:-initiative...should give half def contribution compared to wep skill cuz they are 360 degree.

both solutions or at least the second one should make the whole thing better.
I disagree. Given there already exist a class with the ability to reduce a target's INT into negative numbers thus bestowing all of their attacks with a one-hundred percent chance to crit, extending that blessing by extension to RPDS classes is a bit much. If you nerf INT and/or Disrupt by default you render the casting classes more powerful, a step I see as completely unnecessary.
ppl are of course not reading this good, im actually refering to the contribution "to" dodge(and disrupt as the case is the same exept willp on healers) and not to crit reduction...how can even someone read it into another way... the discussion is not about that...
Last edited by Tesq on Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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CegeePegee
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#43 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:49 pm

To preface this, any class mentioned below that I DO NOT currently have a 40/40 of, I consulted multiple players that do in order to make sure I have my facts straight :)

1st - So to start with disrupt - at the VERY bottom levels you have 3 destro caster (Sorc, Magus, Shammy) - order has two (BW, AM) - so the increase to WP disrupt value + WP (10% disrupt tactic) right from the start gives order an advantage.

2nd - Next you break the classes down according to their mirrors.
- BW's don't complain (notice everyone ignoring them being mentioned in this thread) about disrupt because of two abilities/tactics that ignore this - but they are possibly being nerfed in the future? That in itself would put them in line to THEN discuss what might need to be changed when in reality just a 10% disrupt strikethrough would probably do WONDERS (as was the case with Sham .ab ex mode as an example)- make it mastery based or based on int cap - so 1% per 100 int or something, not hard to do.

- Then compare shammy/AM - AM has two ways of bypassing disrupt, shammy has ZERO - essentially eliminating the shammy DPS spec, and the lifetap spec - not to mention shammy doesn't have the (Heal defensive target for 25% of damage dealt) like AM does - which is why no AM's complain (obvious in this thread as well).

- Magus - 10% disrupt strikethrough when standing near pet, Engis 10% when standing near turret (although engi has less of a time for reasons previously stated in this thread) but to be fair go for it

- Finally you go to the zealot/RP - I would say giving their silence and stagger a 10% strikethrough would be all those two classes really need and honestly just the zealot would really need it since its mirror has a tactic for 50% reduced CC effectiveness but that might be too biased so giving it to both of them would be fine.

3rd - So you choices are a.) a total overhaul on disrupt b.) total overall on disrupt strikethrough or c.) just give it to either a few abilities or overall to a few of the classes. I believe the easiest way is to give disrupt strikethrough to bw's/sorc is 1% for every 100 main int - with possible tweaking. Give shaman 10% strikethrough when "Shrug it off is enabled" if you want to help the healers/lifetap builds - or give 10% disrupt strikethrough same as BW/Sorc suggestion of 1% for every 100 int or maybe 1.5 for sham since they technically do less damage and have a harder time stacking the int. Could even tie to their 10% crit tactic but again this gets more complicated than just giving it based off int - aside from maybe their AP drains (healers use these as part of class utility).

In closing:
It keeps the current system - addresses some of the flaws ( except WP vs DoK w/WP 10% tactic) but I think overall people would have a lot more fun and it is an extremely simple change.

Slmjmosumb
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#44 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:50 pm

I'd like to see a situation where magical damage/dots are likely to hit most times (as often as melee/ranged skills hit) but do less damage when they do hit. Assuming the overall damage amounts are at a decent balance point, I'd like to see more skills hitting but damage toned down on those skills so that the overall change is minor.

Hit more often but for less damage on each hit/tick.

Atropik
Posts: 708

Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#45 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:54 pm

Spoiler:
Penril wrote: Assuming there is indeed an issue with Disrupt, how would this help Magus/DPS Zealot/DPS RP?
This would not help Dps Rp, the lone dps Rp we have deserves no mercy! Fiskgjuice? Am I correct? he almost killed me once!
Be serious.
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peterthepan3
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#46 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:59 pm

Slmjmosumb wrote:I'd like to see a situation where magical damage/dots are likely to hit most times (as often as melee/ranged skills hit) but do less damage when they do hit. Assuming the overall damage amounts are at a decent balance point, I'd like to see more skills hitting but damage toned down on those skills so that the overall change is minor.

Hit more often but for less damage on each hit/tick.

Doesn't make sense as ranged dps like Sorc, BW, & Havoc Magus rely on burst to kill. Small hits are the domain of dot specs/classes, which should (as you say) hit more often.

I don't believe magical RDPS are doing too much damage to warrant any nerfs to said damage. A 4k dmg cap was implemented on server, so you will only oneshot someone when you execute a perfect rotation, stars aligned, resistances debuffed, and with all hits critting.

Like Cegee's proposal, too. Some good suggestions.
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dansari
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#47 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:08 pm

Atropik wrote:
Penril wrote: Assuming there is indeed an issue with Disrupt, how would this help Magus/DPS Zealot/DPS RP?
This would not help Dps Rp, the lone dps Rp we have deserves no mercy! Fiskgjuice? Am I correct? he almost killed me once!
imo the discussion is important primarily for magus/dps sham/dps AM and the zealot/RP stagger. Those are the classes/spells impacted most by the change. BW least of all, like Cegee pointed out, but sorc can pretty easily still blow people up in the right circumstances.

And I don't think it has to do with Deft Defender, as this really only reached a boiling point after the willpower change. I don't think that it needs to be reverted, but I do think it makes some healers incredibly strong.
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Valfaros
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#48 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:18 pm

So I would say disrupt is okay as it is. However some classes have more problems against it then others.
I would recommend balancing the classes around the already excisting mechanic not the other way around. The only thing you get from a mechanic change is that you have to balance everything twice. Twice the work for the same result...

Small changes already have a big impact. I am running transference (10% disruptstrikethrough) with my zealot now and I hardly have a problem with disrupt anymore. It happens sometimes but this is nothing compared to the amount of parry you have against you when playing meele. Another prime example is BW, currently a class working perfectly fine (maybe a bit too powerful) with the current disrupt.

For sure it's problematic when a big damage skill is being disrupted but lots of small hits getting parried is just as bad. What could be thought off is a not 100% avoidance on disrupt and parry. It certainly would fix some problems dps healers have but then again you would have lots of work with several classes. Just think about guard dmg mitigation most of it is done with parry.

Furthermore willpower is not a valuable stat to stack. Therefore it would make things worse if you nerved the disrupt benefit on it. If some healers seem to be too tough there is other things that can be looked at.

For short. Disrupt okay. Overperfroming/underperforming classes should be nerved/buffed or strikethrough given. This can be done via general strikethrough or on key skills. For dps dok I would think about Rend soul. A skill so imporant it just ..... up everything if you get parried.

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Atropik
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#49 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:45 pm

dansari wrote: imo the discussion is important primarily for magus/dps sham/dps AM and the zealot/RP stagger. Those are the classes/spells impacted most by the change. BW least of all, like Cegee pointed out, but sorc can pretty easily still blow people up in the right circumstances.
Those classes are primary healers, and even if they do dps path, vast majority of dots they have are on pretty low cd and can be re-applied all the time without any drawback/penalty, they also have **** tons of survivability/escape tools, can be tough/armor specced and mostly dont care about how often the other one Rune of Immolation or Bleed Fer Me get disrupted or not

On the other hand the MOST POWERFULL AND DISSASTROUS dps class as Sorc supposed to be, can do no harm to anyone if he got disrupted even once. Just have look at some Volgo's videos, every sorc he met can do almost no harm to a one single correctly specced Ib, and i can insure you if there could be 3 sorcs in place of every one they would have the same impact on Volgos hp bar, even if they could have some supports on their side. While BW have at least some tools to deal with it, sorc can only die/reroll, and !steal KB! what a pretty thing, stealing kb is what i played sorc for, yep.
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Telen
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Re: Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

Post#50 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:47 pm

Raefar wrote:The only problem I have with all this is everyone keeps thinking of how the current disrupt effects BW and Sorc but disregard dot classes like Magus/Shammy/AM.

I think most of this could be fixed with just placing a soft cap on disrupt.
The big issue dots classes face is that Im getting around 18% avoidance on dots. Thats 18% on hit and another 18% on each tick. 33% equivalent for dot damage portion to make it through avoidance. A third of all damage wiped off before you even come up against cleanse.
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