Disrupt vs magical class, nerf/boost classes or rework disrupt in general?

[covenn]

Spoiler:

One last suggestion. Disrupt doesnt solve the issue of the biggest offending classes. BW/Sorc are still doing amazingly well in scs and topping kills in orvr. Reason they have short repeatable burst. They might fail a few more rotations due to a disrupt but they can repeat while other classes have much longer set up.

No.

The reason they still can do reasonably well in scenarios is due to fighting up levels and under geared people. Against a properly geared player or anything resembling organized play, they literally do nothing because they cant damage the healers or the tanks, and any mdps they target gets easily healed through.

I mean a BW can spam fiery blast on a point the entire scenario and look like a damage god because of numbers, but that doesn't mean anything useful. That only works against people without healing that decide to leave you alone for a whole scenario. People also seem to forget that a BW/Sorc without healing does no damage because they will kill themselves if they do. They are literally the only two classes in the entire game that HAS to have a healer to do anything remotely resembling damage.

There IS a sweet spot where an uplevel BW/Sorc geared fully out can put a hurting on people, but at 40 it goes away until you take every single piece of +strikethrough items you can in the game just to try and counter a simple renown ability that provides disrupt.

Personally, I find it completely silly that a BW/Sorc has to gear out just to counter a single renown ability. It is so so much harder to gear than it is to click a button a couple of times at the renown trainer.

Stay on topic.

[Telen]

Spoiler:

The reason they still can do reasonably well in scenarios is due to fighting up levels and under geared people. Against a properly geared player or anything resembling organized play, they literally do nothing because they cant damage the healers or the tanks, and any mdps they target gets easily healed through..

This is even more true for all other ranged classes. They though dont have a large self damage type resist debuff on their base dot. The self damage argument is a worn out trope. No class comes close to having as useful a mechanic where a single hot wipes out any negative.

Stay on topic.

[Valfaros]

Spoiler:

The reason they still can do reasonably well in scenarios is due to fighting up levels and under geared people. Against a properly geared player or anything resembling organized play, they literally do nothing because they cant damage the healers or the tanks, and any mdps they target gets easily healed through.

Umm the Drukar group does fairly well against resembling oranized play / even premades. I'm not sure if they are so successful in 6v6 but 12v12 where both sides have a premade they do very good. Well as long as drukar has cover from the add. group he can get our guarded meeles down if he wishes to do so. I'm fairly sure range dd's in assist can do this even better than one single bw.

If a range setup is worse in a 6v6 this doesn't mean anything. 6v6 just takes the biggest advantage from your range dds the range...

The only way they can keep this advantage is if they can kill the enemy early in the fight but that's very unlikly since there is guard, not much cover from a second team and meeles with free cooldowns to reach them.

When the meele train is reaching them it's mostly over with exception of sw that can turn into a rock. Having several meeles on you as a range dd not only mostly kills you even through guard (eventually) it also crippels your damage. After all you have to cast as a ranger. Then additionally range dd's have mostly less defence therefore the group with more sustain wins which is the meele group. There is no way whatsoever in this game to change that. Most classes have no way of ever getting away from the meele train. Therefore if you don't want to make them so strong that they can kill the enemy within seconds even while having guard/detaunt I can't see any solution to change that.

Range dd's start to be better and better if they have cover not to mention their advantage in orvr I don't see why they should be king in every setting. Nor do I see a reason no further nerv healers. They already are crippeld from live due to lack of trivial blow if you want to one shot everything you should play a sniper in bf1.

Same as above.

[peterthepan3]

Spoiler:

12V12, where one premade has an exceptional second team, while you have Mickey Mouse & Co., doesn't really account for much =P

Same as above.

[wargrimnir]

The last two pages are essentially useless to what we're interested in.

[Aurandilaz]

Other ideas:

-if rdpsing from distance is supposed to be punished, reward magical dps using Close Quarters, add maybe 15-20 strikethrough to that tactic as side effect (affects sorc, bw, magus)
[because not all of have instant cast Fieryblasts when doing frontline magical dmg, casting unreliable spells - shattered shadows + black horror, its hard under pressure and result is anything but guaranteed hit on landing}
-since this doesn't yet cover dps Shaman, AM, zealot or Runie, add strikethrough to them
Divine Fury, side effect +20% disrupt strikethrough. (edit; actually when you think about it, it could be general Strikethrough, and work also on DoK/WP Divine Fury so they can get closer to dmg levels of other real mdps classes - not hitting harder but possible still be good in close combat as they lack other tricks that rest of mdps classes have when it comes to close combat effectiveness)

However that might result in AM gaining +45% strikethrough (and extras from gear), with other dps healers at max 20%, so somewhat troublesome.


Honestly however, it would be also IMO worth considering to just totally roll back the changes made in October that massive changed how defensive success are calculated.
Then possible re-adjust "worst offenders" by tuning them a bit.
As it is currently, you need to do individual adjustments to so many classes that have unreliable magical damage under current state of affairs, when we know the reason to that is changes made in October.

Melee hardly changed much with October patch, Tanking got slightly easier due to being able to get more effective chances at Disrupting + Dodging, but magical casting got hit hardest.

So what if things were rolled back, but say, tactic Discipline for healer added them 10-15% Disrupt so they can still remain somewhat harder to hit?

Because after all, this is "alpha test server" and every change is there to be "tested", so now after 3 months of testing, we could conclude that the test had an undesired result and go test something else? Just like shaman/Am and DOK/Wp ab ex modes ended, why not revert the massive chances back to what they were, and then start re-balancing from that point onwards to some other direction.

[Tesq]

Other ideas:

-if rdpsing from distance is supposed to be punished, reward magical dps using Close Quarters, add maybe 15-20 strikethrough to that tactic as side effect (affects sorc, bw, magus)
[because not all of have instant cast Fieryblasts when doing frontline magical dmg, casting unreliable spells - shattered shadows + black horror, its hard under pressure and result is anything but guaranteed hit on landing}
-since this doesn't yet cover dps Shaman, AM, zealot or Runie, add strikethrough to them
Divine Fury, side effect +20% disrupt strikethrough.

However that might result in AM gaining +45% strikethrough (and extras from gear), with other dps healers at max 20%, so somewhat troublesome.


Honestly however, it would be also IMO worth considering to just totally roll back the changes made in October that massive changed how defensive success are calculated.
Then possible re-adjust "worst offenders" by tuning them a bit.
As it is currently, you need to do individual adjustments to so many classes that have unreliable magical damage under current state of affairs, when we know the reason to that is changes made in October.

Melee hardly changed much with October patch, Tanking got slightly easier due to being able to get more effective chances at Disrupting + Dodging, but magical casting got hit hardest.

So what if things were rolled back, but say, tactic Discipline for healer added them 10-15% Disrupt so they can still remain somewhat harder to hit?

Because after all, this is "alpha test server" and every change is there to be "tested", so now after 3 months of testing, we could conclude that the test had an undesired result and go test something else? Just like shaman/Am and DOK/Wp ab ex modes ended, why not revert the massive chances back to what they were, and then start re-balancing from that point onwards to some other direction.

that was a kind of interesting idea; it would give an edge vs melee when they reach em

as solution you could be look at the general range of a skill; then increase disrutp strike based on how much nearer uou get to your target; so for exemple half range value = double striketrough.

Since is "range based on skill range" and so differente for every skill( and not a fic value as close3 quarters) it would be harder to use on aoe skills and the best counter to this is just move away so it would definetely add better onto small scale than rvr. And in rvr it will reward rdps for go into melee range(so rewards for risk paly isntead pew pew distance zerg mdoe) + for focus the aoe onto 1 spot.

-so pew pew from afar-->more dodge/disrupt
-so pew pew from near-->less dodge/dirupt
-no fix value, striketrought increase differently and based on each different range of every.

[Zeviun]

The probelm with disrupt ties into the massive variance it adds to individual encounters despite the fact damage totals remain high. Randomness of course already exists in the game in many forms, but most of the randomness can be controlled if the player is smart. Problem with high disrupt is that this cannot be controlled in any way. 30% average overall disurpt might mean that some encounters you get average 50 disrupt or more if you are unlucky. And some encounters where you get much less. Sure, the total damage amounts might still be high in scenario scoresheets, but the individual encounters have a lot of variance.

High randomness is great for party games where people can blame their losses on bad luck and have a laugh about it. Thus, randomness and high variance is a great way to protect egos. I'm not sure why we need it in a pvp game though. I would revoke the avoidance changes entirely to what they were and look into solving the alleged problem with rdps dominance in another manner.

[footpatrol2]

I'd like to just point out that the fix to Hold the line and the avoidance change basically happened at the same time. So Rdps got hit with 2 things roughly at the same time. If the avoidance change was reverted back it would not be the same gamestate as before because hold the line has been fixed.

I don't know if the avoidance change should be reverted or not. If we know for certain that AoR had this system of avoidance specifically towards dots being affected by avoidance then I am pro this gamestate. If AoR did not have this system of avoidance towards dots, then I am not pro this gamestate.

[scatterthewinds]

The last two pages are essentially useless to what we're interested in.

my bad. I shouldnt have brought up the mdps v rdps thing.