[WE] Finishers

[dansari]

WE's finishers are underpowered.

Witch Elf openers are not. The Witch Elf class already benefits from opening attacks which cannot be defended against combined with Stealth, a three-second knock-down, a four-second disarm, a six-second disable, DOTS which can never be blocked or parried, and offensive abilities which already ignore an opponents armor. Now you want to buff "finishers" under the specious assertion the class is somehow under-powered. And yes, I have a Witch Elf toon, created and played primarily as a learning and moderating exercise.

I have stated this prior, but consider it worth repeating. If a player can not take the Witch Elf class as is and be successful with it, that is a player issue and not a class issue.

To be fair a lot of these are consistent across the stealth archetype. However, I know the two classes function differently, so I guess it warrants the question: should finishers be bolstered and openers nerfed? Mainly my point is, if finishers aren't being used at all, that is a class issue. If WEs are not using the mechanic of the class because it's underperforming, it should be looked at.

[daniilpb]

WE’s finishers should be changed but not in the proposed way of armor reduction/ignore. WEs should get more utility and survivability but not more damage which could turn them into state of meat grinders of early live servers.

[Martok]

To be fair a lot of these are consistent across the stealth archetype. However, I know the two classes function differently, so I guess it warrants the question: should finishers be bolstered and openers nerfed? Mainly my point is, if finishers aren't being used at all, that is a class issue. If WEs are not using the mechanic of the class because it's underperforming, it should be looked at.

Your comment makes perfect sense. However, to fully explore the issue an additional question needs to be asked. Are WE's in general not using the finisher mechanic because they under-perform, or because given all the advantages found within the opening attacks they are generally and/or completely unnecessary?

[Aurandilaz]

OYK - good ranged catcher 30ft ranged KD
RA - solid finisher with good dmg for catching fleeing people
WB - solid dmg, used to be better
HRT - meh, better woundsdebuff from elsewhere
SS - decent for AA buff, snare could be better, heal component bit weak
Puncture - blergh, as basic as it gets, no real utility nor even good dmg like RA

AW spam is still the best way to go combined with the +15 crit because how subpar the other 2 "main dmg" abilities of other trees are.

I'd probably at best suggest 10-20% base dmg increase for the basic 3 core finishers and maybe add some utility to Puncture, like make it undefendable or ignore 50% of armor IF used from behind with new "must be facing targets back" requirement.

[Ummagumma]

My Witch Elf here is still young, but I played one on live for a couple of years (including beta) and got to rr80, so I'd like to offer some input.

On finishers being underpowered

This is partially by design. Mythic designed WE and WH in slightly different ways. WE do more damage leading up to a weaker finisher and WH do less damage leading to a more powerful finisher. You can see this with kisses proccing 25% on all attacks and bullets proccing 100% of the time only on finishers.

Witchbrew is not your best finisher, it's your worst (well, maybe tied with Heart Render Toxin) unless the devs changed it to ignore global cooldown times and crit. Why? So, after you build up your blood lust, you get 6 attacks with extra damage, with 1.5 seconds of GCT (Global Cooldown Time) you, as a squishy elf, have to stand in melee for 9 seconds, give or take lag.

The game is all about that burst damage, and Witchbrew doesn't have it. Puncture is your best finisher, actually, because as a WE you do almost exclusively single target damage, and the highest, single target burst finisher is Puncture (not saying other finishers are crap, just saying this is the best for what a WE does)

""if finishers aren't being used at all, that is a class issue. If WEs are not using the mechanic of the class because it's underperforming, it should be looked at.""

While compared with WH, WE finishers are weaker, but they shouldn't be made equal on account of how WE kisses work compared to bullets. If anything, I think kisses should be bolstered by ignoring Global Cooldown Time, as they did at the start of the game to keep WE and WH different instead of just bolstering all WE finishers. Right now I think there is an imbalance between a lot of the finishers compared to some WH finishers.

On ignoring armor

Making finishers ignore armor isn't needed. You already have Agonizing Wounds and Pierce Armor as alternatives.

As an alternative, perhaps have an additional finisher or two apply a different damage type, like spirit as an example.

On Heal Debuff

You already have 2 heal debuffs, Kiss of Death and Black Lotus Blade. I don't think WE need a third heal debuff.

On Armor Debuff

You mention slice, so maybe an armor debuff might be more appropriate in Carnage than Treachery. Treachery already has a spammable ability that can ignore armor.

I think WE do need help in some areas...Suffering needs help (Maybe turn it into a defensive/dot line), I think Increased Pain is too vital (For WH as well) and should be core (any WE or WH that doesn't take their +50% crit damage tactic is gimped), and I think kisses should go back to ignoring GCT...but I don't think Puncture and SS are the weak points that need love, unless compared to WH, but that would mean a finisher evaluation and in such an evaluation I would prefer WE and WH be unique and not simply copy/paste the class abilities to find balance. Right now Puncture and SS are, for what a WE has, good finishers. To me, it sounds like you want to be able to take everyone down as easy as low armor characters, and I don't think that design will make the game better.

[Krima]

Then, again, back to WH topic: this class has only one good finisher in that case which is Exit Wounds because BAL is not that easy to get use of in organized fight since every tick of it can be parried/blocked and the skill itself can be removed. So, one class can have better finishers (from OP's view) but the other has much better mechanics (probably, that's why we have so many WEs in 6v6 and not that many WHs) - a fair deal.

wrong.. I see alot of BAL in organized fights and its pretty dam easy to use and to cover it also..by the way all ticks are undefendable

you guys can talk all the crap u want.. right now ATM

rotation:

WHs = Pistol Whip, BAL,TORMENT, ABSOLUTION = (2 finishers being used )
WEs = HS, AW, AW, AW, (0 finishers)

Everyone who plays both classes knows thats a fact... its the truth.

[Twohandernoob]

The problem isn't that WE needs their finishers buffed (they'll be OP if finishers get buffed), it's depressing to have a mechanic aimed at powering up towards finishers and then they're meh.

Playing WH is more fun.

[dansari]

This is partially by design. Mythic designed WE and WH in slightly different ways. WE do more damage leading up to a weaker finisher and WH do less damage leading to a more powerful finisher. You can see this with kisses proccing 25% on all attacks and bullets proccing 100% of the time only on finishers.

Thank you. This is my understanding but I don't play either class so I appreciate you giving clarity.

[dansari]

To be fair a lot of these are consistent across the stealth archetype. However, I know the two classes function differently, so I guess it warrants the question: should finishers be bolstered and openers nerfed? Mainly my point is, if finishers aren't being used at all, that is a class issue. If WEs are not using the mechanic of the class because it's underperforming, it should be looked at.

Your comment makes perfect sense. However, to fully explore the issue an additional question needs to be asked. Are WE's in general not using the finisher mechanic because they under-perform, or because given all the advantages found within the opening attacks they are generally and/or completely unnecessary?

Fair point, I think for most people it seems WE playstyle is "boring" -- so maybe we can do something to finishers that make them more exciting / dynamic to use but not necessarily a damage bonus if it's not needed, like danii was suggesting.

[daniilpb]

Then, again, back to WH topic: this class has only one good finisher in that case which is Exit Wounds because BAL is not that easy to get use of in organized fight since every tick of it can be parried/blocked and the skill itself can be removed. So, one class can have better finishers (from OP's view) but the other has much better mechanics (probably, that's why we have so many WEs in 6v6 and not that many WHs) - a fair deal.

wrong.. I see alot of BAL in organized fights and its pretty dam easy to use and to cover it also..by the way all ticks are undefendable

you guys can talk all the crap u want.. right now ATM

rotation:

WHs = Pistol Whip, BAL,TORMENT, ABSOLUTION = (2 finishers being used )
WEs = HS, AW, AW, AW, (0 finishers)

Everyone who plays both classes knows thats a fact... its the truth.

You got me on that point because I was told that WH’s BAL can be parried and not welcome in group play. If the first point is clearly false, the second one still can be truth