[WE] Finishers

[sunnyray]

Problem:
-WE's finishers are underpowered.
-Witchbrew is the only option damage wise. As a result a whole "school" of people using just the +15 crit tactic and AW spam appeared.
-Subsequently the mechanic of the class is poorly used, puncture or sacrificial stab are viable only versus squishes. Puncture and SS drop the DPS when used on targets with >1.8k armor.
-The mirror class (WH) does not have these problems due to very powerful finishers (BAL, EW), which skyrocket the burst.

Solution1:
-make puncture/sacrifical stab to penetrate armor. It will not make dramatic changes on squishes due initial lack of high armor, however there will be at least a chance to have a hit, which is significantly higher compared to AW. This is why it is a finisher. So it would be fair to dump all the accumulated mechanic of the class just to have a chance to increase DPS (in case it crits).

Solution2:
-make a 10 sec heal debuff (10-50%) or armor debuff (5-25%) scaling with mechanic on puncture. With armor debuff you could actually make slice work (not just the AW spam). On squishes it will be like max 300-400 debuff and WE will go for other finishers (SS/WB), but on tanks it will be more significant and WE will use puncture. You can make the debuff applied only when used from the back, so that players could actually counter this ability. It provides people opportunity to be flexible in play, requires positioning and use both the mechanic and different abilities. Also it open doors for WE in 6vs6.

Obviously it should not be stackable with other debuffs. So for all squishies and medium targets the armor debuffs of other classes will be better and WE will make no impact at all. However, WE would shine on highly defensive targets since a 25% would give a 1.2-1.5 times higher debuff compared to others. And again a WE will have to plan for that, get 5x mechanic, be in the back of the player, consider not to use WB even though it gives better dps..it will take more decision-making and group play. In the end it may have a place in 6vs6 melee setup.

Solution3:
-simply increase the damage modifier of SS and Puncture, to be signficantly higher than AW on medium armor target.

Solution4:
-if you want WE to deal the same damage as it does now...*sigh* it is not that spectacular...but you probably have a wider view. Than make AW penetrate 90% armor, but the finisher to be awesome. It's a finisher after all, it should be awesome, dramatic, very useful...you use the whole class mechanic for it.

Or any other solution is fine, which makes finishers worthy to use the mechanic.

[dansari]

Moving to discussions. Topic will be closed on May 4.

[Toldavf]

I have questions.

1. What is the current maximum damage of these skills mitigation included, for a welf with decent gear?

2. For solution one, how much armour pen are we talking here? with a very nice WS buff from pierce armour and elixir of insane power (all be it EOIP is on a massive cd) there are already ways of significantly reducing armour mitigation.

3. Armour debuffs used to exist nf conq and i head a rumour about an off hand that had a corrosion proc(might be total bunk) so i mean it could work. Does it help them get a group spot? unlikely at least one of the tanks in dest is going to have an armour debuff and its probably going to be bigger than yours.

4. I understand why more damage would work, most of your executions hit twice and so are subject to 2 chances at critting making their chance to achieve maximum burst less reliable.

[Krima]

I agree on solution 3,
DMG should be as following;
At 5 bloodlust on medium armor.

SS > PUNCTURE = HRT = RA > single AW

[daniilpb]

First of all, doors are wide open already for the class in 6v6. WE is really good in this scene, actually it's one of the best destro damage dealers, so the statement that WE doesn't have place in 6v6 is clearly false.
Secondly, if there is a comparison with WH, then it should be good to mention that WE has much better and more reliable mechanics of Kisses. It is also can be combined with Sacrificial Stab finisher (which gives good AA buff) to achieve good sustain damage. Then, again, back to WH topic: this class has only one good finisher in that case which is Exit Wounds because BAL is not that easy to get use of in organized fight since every tick of it can be parried/blocked and the skill itself can be removed. So, one class can have better finishers (from OP's view) but the other has much better mechanics (probably, that's why we have so many WEs in 6v6 and not that many WHs) - a fair deal.
Armor ignoring mechanics are quite toxic especially with low cooldown (in that case morals with true damage seem more legit), so there shouldn't be any more armor ignoring or reducing opportunities for the class which can already handle armor values quite easily. Such changes can turn WE into unstoppable beast that won't care about enemies it will face. The class is already killing squishes quite easily sometimes even without a single chance, so at least tanks should stand its damage pressure to keep it balanced in some kind.
Puncture is a core finisher which doesn't require any tree spendings, so making it that powerful may result in low hanging fruit situation.
And Sacrificial Stab was already given nice buffs, of course not in the damage department (Because WE already has good damage dealing opportunities) but in utility direction which gave it some use.
Finally, I can't see any possible drawback of these changes which, I believe, should be provided because the class can easily handle weaknesses of certain finishers with other skills/mechanics. I think possible drawbacks should be related to Agonizing Wounds spam which was mentioned by OP. If WE needs some more tools to deal with armor, then such a cheap instrument like no-cd armor ignoring ability should be looked at.

[ToXoS]

First of all, doors are wide open already for the class in 6v6. WE is really good in this scene, actually it's one of the best destro damage dealers, so the statement that WE doesn't have place in 6v6 is clearly false.
Secondly, if there is a comparison with WH, then it should be good to mention that WE has much better and more reliable mechanics of Kisses. It is also can be combined with Sacrificial Stab finisher (which gives good AA buff) to achieve good sustain damage. Then, again, back to WH topic: this class has only one good finisher in that case which is Exit Wounds because BAL is not that easy to get use of in organized fight since every tick of it can be parried/blocked and the skill itself can be removed. So, one class can have better finishers (from OP's view) but the other has much better mechanics (probably, that's why we have so many WEs in 6v6 and not that many WHs) - a fair deal.
Armor ignoring mechanics are quite toxic especially with low cooldown (in that case morals with true damage seem more legit), so there shouldn't be any more armor ignoring or reducing opportunities for the class which can already handle armor values quite easily. Such changes can turn WE into unstoppable beast that won't care about enemies it will face. The class is already killing squishes quite easily sometimes even without a single chance, so at least tanks should stand its damage pressure to keep it balanced in some kind.
Puncture is a core finisher which doesn't require any tree spendings, so making it that powerful may result in low hanging fruit situation.
And Sacrificial Stab was already given nice buffs, of course not in the damage department (Because WE already has good damage dealing opportunities) but in utility direction which gave it some use.
Finally, I can't see any possible drawback of these changes which, I believe, should be provided because the class can easily handle weaknesses of certain finishers with other skills/mechanics. I think possible drawbacks should be related to Agonizing Wounds spam which was mentioned by OP. If WE needs some more tools to deal with armor, then such a cheap instrument like no-cd armor ignoring ability should be looked at.

I'm pretty sure we are not supposed to talk about the mirror when a balance proposal is being discussed.
Also, my R40RR45 WH never got its BAL ticks blocked or parried, ever. The ticks are undefendable, but not the initial application of the ability.

[Panzerkasper]

First of all, doors are wide open already for the class in 6v6. WE is really good in this scene, actually it's one of the best destro damage dealers, so the statement that WE doesn't have place in 6v6 is clearly false.
Secondly, if there is a comparison with WH, then it should be good to mention that WE has much better and more reliable mechanics of Kisses. It is also can be combined with Sacrificial Stab finisher (which gives good AA buff) to achieve good sustain damage. Then, again, back to WH topic: this class has only one good finisher in that case which is Exit Wounds because BAL is not that easy to get use of in organized fight since every tick of it can be parried/blocked and the skill itself can be removed. So, one class can have better finishers (from OP's view) but the other has much better mechanics (probably, that's why we have so many WEs in 6v6 and not that many WHs) - a fair deal.
Armor ignoring mechanics are quite toxic especially with low cooldown (in that case morals with true damage seem more legit), so there shouldn't be any more armor ignoring or reducing opportunities for the class which can already handle armor values quite easily. Such changes can turn WE into unstoppable beast that won't care about enemies it will face. The class is already killing squishes quite easily sometimes even without a single chance, so at least tanks should stand its damage pressure to keep it balanced in some kind.
Puncture is a core finisher which doesn't require any tree spendings, so making it that powerful may result in low hanging fruit situation.
And Sacrificial Stab was already given nice buffs, of course not in the damage department (Because WE already has good damage dealing opportunities) but in utility direction which gave it some use.
Finally, I can't see any possible drawback of these changes which, I believe, should be provided because the class can easily handle weaknesses of certain finishers with other skills/mechanics. I think possible drawbacks should be related to Agonizing Wounds spam which was mentioned by OP. If WE needs some more tools to deal with armor, then such a cheap instrument like no-cd armor ignoring ability should be looked at.

1. He didnt say WE has no place in 6vs6, he said he wants to open doors for her. I think he means other doors then playing WB+AW spam, wich is the most stupid but also most effective way to play this class unfortunatly.

2. WE kisses are technically more unreliable then WH bullets since they are random procs and bullets fire guaranteed on finishers.

3. BaL is one of the best, if not the best, DoTs in the game. Its ticks are undefendable and yes it can be cleansed, just like every debuff can be cleansed. Hence the principle of cover ups exist. Also every dangerous WH i met on this server played BaL and not EW.

I personally would run with Option 1 or 3, favouring 3.
We don't need huge changes in this game all the time, just some minor tweaks here and there.

[daniilpb]

I'm pretty sure we are not supposed to talk about the mirror when a balance proposal is being discussed.
Also, my R40RR45 WH never got its BAL ticks blocked or parried, ever. The ticks are undefendable, but not the initial application of the ability.

OP appealed to mirror class in one of the problems, so I followed his/her desire to compare these two classes.
Even though, it doesn't make BAL desirable in small scale fights out of duels.

[daniilpb]

1. He didnt say WE has no place in 6vs6, he said he wants to open doors for her. I think he means other doors then playing WB+AW spam, wich is the most stupid but also most effective way to play this class unfortunatly.

2. WE kisses are technically more unreliable then WH bullets since they are random procs and bullets fire guaranteed on finishers.

3. BaL is one of the best, if not the best, DoTs in the game. Its ticks are undefendable and yes it can be cleansed, just like every debuff can be cleansed. Hence the principle of cover ups exist. Also every dangerous WH i met on this server played BaL and not EW.

I personally would run with Option 1 or 3, favouring 3.
We don't need huge changes in this game all the time, just some minor tweaks here and there.

1. The way of opening doors through proposed changes w/o possible drawbacks is not the best way in my eyes. Armor values are not the main problems of WEs.
2. WE has quite high AA speed which makes Kisses with 25% proc chance more than reliable source of damage and debuff.

[Martok]

WE's finishers are underpowered.

Witch Elf openers are not. The Witch Elf class already benefits from opening attacks which cannot be defended against combined with Stealth, a three-second knock-down, a four-second disarm, a six-second disable, DOTS which can never be blocked or parried, and offensive abilities which already ignore an opponents armor. Now you want to buff "finishers" under the specious assertion the class is somehow under-powered. And yes, I have a Witch Elf toon, created and played primarily as a learning and moderating exercise.

I have stated this prior, but consider it worth repeating. If a player can not take the Witch Elf class as is and be successful with it, that is a player issue and not a class issue.