[Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound

[Tesq]

Lowering the cooldown to nsp is not a huge buff. Hold the line out performs it in most scenarios. Also what strongest breacher what skill(s) are you talking about? How is +30% parry a "point where the class shines at" if other classes like chosen can gain +50% parry with a s/b with a base skill and 1 tactic. Other classes out perform blackguards with a shield. That is the point of this post. Adding a block tactic would help synergize s/b on blackguards and give a point to not using a 2h because right now it greatly out performs s/b

well i have both classes and i can assure you that average the parry of my bg is higer than my chosen even if my chosen can reach higer value cuz suppressio require to land and it can be shattered, so vs competent ppl that know how to deal with you bg is harder to deal with, your parry can be keep up with no fail it jsut depend by your rotation and how you use hate is not a self buff that can miss or be dispelled.

[germ32]

The only point blackguards really specialize with things they do that other classes cannot are the buffs they can give to the people they have dark protector for +600 armor or 4 attacks at 100% parry or if they are specced for dps they can deal higher burst than other tanks. Keep in mind all of those things are achievable with a 2h spec. other than that any spec with mid range str will undeperform in terms of damage for any fight that lasts longer than 10s and is in general inferior to what either of the other two destro tanks bring to the table with a s/b

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

The only point blackguards really specialize with things they do that other classes cannot are the buffs they can give to the people they have dark protector for +600 armor or 4 attacks at 100% parry or if they are specced for dps they can deal higher burst than other tanks. Keep in mind all of those things are achievable with a 2h spec. other than that any spec with mid range str will undeperform in terms of damage for any fight that lasts longer than 10s and is in general inferior to what either of the other two destro tanks bring to the table with a s/b

well, to be honest it is due most mid mastery stuff being avaiable core from mastery, you can crit debuff 2 ppl for exemple for free, 2h stuff is used for orvr, if you want go orvr you go 2h, because those are the things which bring you on par with ch/bo.
In small scale or gank/kite you may aswell go s+b and be pretty good at it. But well yes more thing can eb done in 2h and s+b is more limited, same and opposite are otehr tanks which can do mroe thing sin s+b and their 2h builds are mo limited, sm/bg are probably the more 2h flexible while other 4 tanks are more limited in 2h. But that matter in regard to their "utility" about their durability bg is on par with other 2 tank; it is better than other 2h version of em while it still dont reach s+b tankiness while in 2h.

[mubbl]

Why is no cd nsp to huge of a buff:
because black guard got some nice handy defense tools like:
1. good value on thougness buff
2. Terryfing foe its a damn procental thoughness buff its stacks with rugged(160 thoughness) and feeding on weaknees sure you have to hit someone but you got htl till you hit someone its a damn 34 point tactic anybody else have it? im sure nobdy have something like that badass.
3. Black guard have a 30% perry tactic (anger drives me) weakness build up time(hate) pros cant be purdged
4. Shielding anger same as point 3 just with disrupt
5. forcess of furry you mentioned satcking armor buff with potions and again percentage reduction this time for crit its a dman 10 point skill it is purgable 20 sec cd 10 sec uptime
6. Malekiths bulwark: just 75% magic dmg taken price 15% less effective heal on you
7. Endless pursuit 20% speed bonus proc(subjegator weapon 2 hand has the same value) on disrupt AND you gain 40ap why does this is strong wiht nsp? cause nobody is hindering you in swith fromj htl to nsp cause after change it both is no cd
8. Feeding on pain tactic 7 points the lower hp the lower ap costs up to 75% reduced( personally i would like it on no cd nsp
9. Shield of rage a potent bubble with 10 sec cd and uptime
10. Driven by hate costs 40 hate gives 160 ap-> nsp gives hate per block
11. bolstering anger heals for hate 1min cd 30 sec uptime mdg on bubble is negated by thougness only and you can reach soft cap with ez with other tools you have
12. super punt back every 20 secs you can seperate a single guy -> he dead if used right
13. spiteful slam 5 sec kd one 100 hate longest cc in game
14. elite training next for attacks are parried and base on hate it gives group 15 ap for each parry
15. you have 3 interrupts first is taunt second is crushing anger and it reduces ap up to 30 based on rage and last is choking fury 6 point skill its aplays a hex which causes the enemy to pay another ap for an ability for 10 secs
why its sad to give bg no cd nsp:
1. no cd shield wall is bos signiture spell compareable to wos of sm
2. bo has more passiv benefits and not so impact full or riskless offensive tools(free imunitys)
3. bg is THE 2h tank on destro atm therefore to give him no cd nsp which is best defensiv spell in game just dont looks right
overall you have to compare what bg has and bo not cause he should be the adress why someone needs a no cd shield wall
i know bg snb need something but not the no cd sheildwall maybe the 10 sec cd cause if you are interuppeted you should use some of your other tools and you have damn many

Spoiler:

The only point blackguards really specialize with things they do that other classes cannot are the buffs they can give to the people they have dark protector for +600 armor or 4 attacks at 100% parry or if they are specced for dps they can deal higher burst than other tanks. Keep in mind all of those things are achievable with a 2h spec. other than that any spec with mid range str will undeperform in terms of damage for any fight that lasts longer than 10s and is in general inferior to what either of the other two destro tanks bring to the table with a s/b

there you got a point that the other two tanks are better in snb but if you read what i wrote about bg you can find some things the others dont have for example both tactics wiht % based values(ap and thougness).
no cd nsp would just be over the top i mean its just the most powerful defence ability in game with no cd or a low one and the bg defence tools are strong and plenty

[Koha]

too long.... BG is OP in subtance....

You could make the same list of cool things on any tank in the game or any character, does not change that NSP is not usable in PvP with a CD. Are you aware that you can't take all these cool things in a build ? Ironbreaker is in a better place if you go that way : you can get 25% crit + 50% haste + aoe snare + ws buff + self heal... You can't with BG

well i have both classes and i can assure you that average the parry of my bg is higer than my chosen even if my chosen can reach higer value cuz suppressio require to land and it can be shattered, so vs competent ppl that know how to deal with you bg is harder to deal with, your parry can be keep up with no fail it jsut depend by your rotation and how you use hate is not a self buff that can miss or be dispelled.

BG needs is thoughness and strength buffs to hit to get buffed... and still need high hate to have parry.
Chosen got aura ready anytime, only buff you have to bother hitting an easy target or a soft back is parry buff.... mixed defense works quite nicely whatever...
Can we agree on a draw ?

[Tesq]

too long.... BG is OP in subtance....

You could make the same list of cool things on any tank in the game or any character, does not change that NSP is not usable in PvP with a CD. Are you aware that you can't take all these cool things in a build ? Ironbreaker is in a better place if you go that way : you can get 25% crit + 50% haste + aoe snare + ws buff + self heal... You can't with BG

well i have both classes and i can assure you that average the parry of my bg is higer than my chosen even if my chosen can reach higer value cuz suppressio require to land and it can be shattered, so vs competent ppl that know how to deal with you bg is harder to deal with, your parry can be keep up with no fail it jsut depend by your rotation and how you use hate is not a self buff that can miss or be dispelled.

BG needs is thoughness and strength buffs to hit to get buffed... and still need high hate to have parry.
Chosen got aura ready anytime, only buff you have to bother hitting an easy target or a soft back is parry buff.... mixed defense works quite nicely whatever...
Can we agree on a draw ?

Ye they are most likely even not argumenting in favor of one or another one

[mubbl]

Spoiler:

too long.... BG is OP in subtance....

You could make the same list of cool things on any tank in the game or any character, does not change that NSP is not usable in PvP with a CD. Are you aware that you can't take all these cool things in a build ? Ironbreaker is in a better place if you go that way : you can get 25% crit + 50% haste + aoe snare + ws buff + self heal... You can't with BG

well i have both classes and i can assure you that average the parry of my bg is higer than my chosen even if my chosen can reach higer value cuz suppressio require to land and it can be shattered, so vs competent ppl that know how to deal with you bg is harder to deal with, your parry can be keep up with no fail it jsut depend by your rotation and how you use hate is not a self buff that can miss or be dispelled.

BG needs is thoughness and strength buffs to hit to get buffed... and still need high hate to have parry.
Chosen got aura ready anytime, only buff you have to bother hitting an easy target or a soft back is parry buff.... mixed defense works quite nicely whatever...
Can we agree on a draw ?

to your list of skills, bg also have aoe snare and selfheal, if he wants he has 2. bolstering anger and feeding on weakness, but offensive wise his buffs are not as good, there you got your point.
well you are not wrong, you cant take all 15 mantions skills with you, but you can take 13 with you on rr 60 and they are all defences tool or really nasty things, which would benefit from defeciv skills and a no cd nsp would be just over the top. i mean what do you expect from getting a no nsp cd how would bg benefit? bumm mega version of stone ib? no cd nsp would open up more builds you may wont take parry tactic anymore, cause you are gsl kroean pro player and just hit nsp button each second gcd.
im sure ib dont have shield wall....
im aware 30 sec nsp succs no doubt, but no cd nsp....nsp alone is even better then chm of bo and has lower mastery point costs,expect the cd...i mean if bg may get his wods why not lower the cd again?
sry for the long textes but its important and thats how disscusions work , cause in this case there are all these points why bg had nsp 10 sec cd and now 30 sec and bo hast ctm as it is. no cd is a signiture spell as bo. i mean why arent yopu be happy you can wear a shield and can actually do something in meele other then dug in someone looks at you? is there an other real or semi potent argument for ops porposal other then htl is better and the cd succs? i mean he has his points but no cd for a better skill then ctm, which on top is a signiture spell and well placed for bo, because he is big green fluffy teddy bear compared to some riped of tanks?
these signiture spell arguments of mine are no hard points for balance they are for individual play style of calsses, which make RoR great.

[dansari]

Locking

[dansari]

Back to the drawing board on your BG proposals

Per Torque: NSP has no snare component, and taking away the cooldown would make it exponentially better than Can't Hit Me available at lower on the tree. ADM is highly valuable (which is why it was reverted back to 13pt) and works with guard mitigation. No reason to nerf Spiteful Slam, no reason to add fluff dot to Monstrous Ruin, and Horrific Wound is fine, there are just better armor debuffs.