[Blackguard] S/B, Monstrous Ruin, Horrific Wound

[Koha]

Open for discussion. Will be locked in TWO WEEKS from now (10th May).

I am a fan of making None Shall Pass without a CD, akin to the BO variant. BG has pretty mediocre block values for a tank, so having a channel that can be relied could be hugely positive for WB tank play.

In regards to AMD giving block: given its position, and the fact that it is in Loathing tree - aka the tank tree - I would not be opposed to such a change, but it would hurt 2h defensive BGs (or any Malice BG that is speccing it, forsaking much of their arsenal). Perhaps make it give block if a SNB is equipped, and parry if not?

2.5% may be a bit too much (25% at 100 hate). Dan and I both thought 1.5 could be a happy medium?

I can only agree with Peterthepan.
None shall pass is only really usable in pve with its CD. Any taunt will interrupt the skill and put it on CD... not worth a mastery point at the moment.

Anger drives me should give the option to either parry bonus when 2h and block rate when SNB (15%). The tactic is high in the tree, and many other tanks can stack both parry and block buffs.
This change would not allow BG to do so.

Leave the KD as it is. Part of BG particularity

[TenTonHammer]

Wait

this actully god moved to discussions even though most of these changes are horrible and unecessary nerfs to 2H bg and SnB BG? among other implications?

First off the OP makes the statement that generating block for KD is hard and thats why its necessary to run None shall pass

its not, between renown, defensive tank gear and floating guard its not hard to get block from guard damge

spiteful slam is unreliable yes but it is compensated for by being the hardest CC in this game second only to killing a target , it is a valid trade off and in turn is what makes Get down a valid alternative as Get down is consistent on demand CC but has a shorter duration

Changing Ager drives me to block exclusively is a MASSIVE loss to the effective surviveability and effectiveness of 2H BG and harms their effectiveness as assist guard tanks in melee comps not to mention that deftard BG's already took it for the parry boost and it would be a loss to them too


the change to horrific wound is also an awful idea, BG provides the second highest armor debuff on destro after mara but requires scaling hate where as Black orc provides a lower value but consistent armor debuff option vs bg's higher value with a 5s CD

changing Bg armor debuff value to be lower breaks that balance, and for what reason? its not like the ability was over performing and why does it need a hate cost? just because it was in the hatred tree does not mean every ability needs to spend hate

the only change that seems reasonable here to consider is the proc tactic change

[Koha]

Half of OP proposal is not a good thing indeed

I prefer to concentrate on the half full glass:
NSP change and Anger Drives me the rest indeed is unnecessary.

BG Higher armor debuff compensate for the lack of a WS buff (IB / BO) or magic damage (CH, KOTBS, SM), but I would gladly exchange the excess of armor debuff for a WS buff shared with defensive target.

[peterthepan3]

Must also say that I do not like the proposed changes to HW. I do, however, like the Loathing suggestions.

[catholicism198]

There are way too many things going on here. Way too many.
Monstrous Ruin deserves it's own discussion as the argument being used is entirely different and supports a different play-style.
With that said, I do like the idea of reworking the tactic, as it currently serves no purpose, but the damage should scale based on hate and the number of points spent in Malice similar to how Cave-In does but dealing a slightly reduced amount of damage.

As for the Anger Drives Me...Aside from a select few very high renown Black Guards, can any real Malice Black Guard actually reach that tactic? -If you want to take the necessary core abilities offered in Malice plus Anger Drives Me you'd need to be at least rr60....sure, more Black Guards would get more mileage out of a block tactic, but haven't 2H Black Guards suffered enough? A reduced cool down for None Shall Pass should be enough.

Horrific Wound doesn't feel clunky, Black Orcs are clunky- You can easily hit 60-75 Hatred with one Enraged Beating.

[Tesq]

There are way too many things going on here. Way too many.
Monstrous Ruin deserves it's own discussion as the argument being used is entirely different and supports a different play-style.
With that said, I do like the idea of reworking the tactic, as it currently serves no purpose, but the damage should scale based on hate and the number of points spent in Malice similar to how Cave-In does but dealing a slightly reduced amount of damage.

As for the Anger Drives Me...Aside from a select few very high renown Black Guards, can any real Malice Black Guard actually reach that tactic? -If you want to take the necessary core abilities offered in Malice plus Anger Drives Me you'd need to be at least rr60....sure, more Black Guards would get more mileage out of a block tactic, but haven't 2H Black Guards suffered enough? A reduced cool down for None Shall Pass should be enough.

Horrific Wound doesn't feel clunky, Black Orcs are clunky- You can easily hit 60-75 Hatred with one Enraged Beating.

rr50 + full set,

CD, kd, and 2h etc stuff

[catholicism198]

There are way too many things going on here. Way too many.
Monstrous Ruin deserves it's own discussion as the argument being used is entirely different and supports a different play-style.
With that said, I do like the idea of reworking the tactic, as it currently serves no purpose, but the damage should scale based on hate and the number of points spent in Malice similar to how Cave-In does but dealing a slightly reduced amount of damage.

As for the Anger Drives Me...Aside from a select few very high renown Black Guards, can any real Malice Black Guard actually reach that tactic? -If you want to take the necessary core abilities offered in Malice plus Anger Drives Me you'd need to be at least rr60....sure, more Black Guards would get more mileage out of a block tactic, but haven't 2H Black Guards suffered enough? A reduced cool down for None Shall Pass should be enough.

Horrific Wound doesn't feel clunky, Black Orcs are clunky- You can easily hit 60-75 Hatred with one Enraged Beating.

rr50 + full set,

CD, kd, and 2h etc stuff

Full set* of what? Dated Mercenary or Annihilator gear?

*You only need 4

[Tesq]

yes 4 piece, of one of those (ruin, anny, merc) depending on build....

[dansari]

Wait

this actully god moved to discussions even though most of these changes are horrible and unecessary nerfs to 2H bg and SnB BG? among other implications?

To be clear, the only hard requirement is for someone to have a 40/40 of the class. Normally we'll decline something if it's in a poor format, portrays a weak argument, or tries to go against a consistency across classes (the shammy instant heal proposal I closed, for example). Beyond that, there is a useful conversation to be had in this discussion. Let's keep it on track.

[catholicism198]

Yeah, sub-optimal gear.
No.