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[SW] 15pt Path of Scout Ability

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daniilpb
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] new 15pt ability in Path of The Scout . [Close Date: 22nd May]

Post#71 » Mon May 14, 2018 9:36 pm

Acidic wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:25 pm
daniilpb wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:16 pm
I mean there are 2 real 15pt abilities so you can't say that they all should be equal or fix same issues like utility etc
Agree but there needs to be some level expectations for these skills.
Just now I can understand the WL ones , they might not be great but I do not believe the goal is to be great, they complete a set of skills rather than in thief own . That is they Help the group and are not great for solo.
Well, you can't also judge w/o taking into account whole structure of the class. Some classes/builds can get their 15pts and lose nothing but in case of Scout SW you will have to lose some essential stuff therefore the cost should be justified enough.
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Acidic
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] new 15pt ability in Path of The Scout . [Close Date: 22nd May]

Post#72 » Mon May 14, 2018 9:55 pm

daniilpb wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:36 pm
Acidic wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:25 pm
daniilpb wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:16 pm
I mean there are 2 real 15pt abilities so you can't say that they all should be equal or fix same issues like utility etc
Agree but there needs to be some level expectations for these skills.
Just now I can understand the WL ones , they might not be great but I do not believe the goal is to be great, they complete a set of skills rather than in thief own . That is they Help the group and are not great for solo.
Well, you can't also judge w/o taking into account whole structure of the class. Some classes/builds can get their 15pts and lose nothing but in case of Scout SW you will have to lose some essential stuff therefore the cost should be justified enough.
I would suggest that the fix is in one of the many other SW balance threads and the 15 point should not be so powerful as this would force the class into a position that the other skills could not be improved.
In short it’s not the 15 point skill to balance a whole tree, well at least in my opinion

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daniilpb
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] new 15pt ability in Path of The Scout . [Close Date: 22nd May]

Post#73 » Mon May 14, 2018 10:08 pm

Acidic wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:55 pm
daniilpb wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:36 pm
Acidic wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:25 pm

Agree but there needs to be some level expectations for these skills.
Just now I can understand the WL ones , they might not be great but I do not believe the goal is to be great, they complete a set of skills rather than in thief own . That is they Help the group and are not great for solo.
Well, you can't also judge w/o taking into account whole structure of the class. Some classes/builds can get their 15pts and lose nothing but in case of Scout SW you will have to lose some essential stuff therefore the cost should be justified enough.
I would suggest that the fix is in one of the many other SW balance threads and the 15 point should not be so powerful as this would force the class into a position that the other skills could not be improved.
In short it’s not the 15 point skill to balance a whole tree, well at least in my opinion
This ability clearly won’t fix all the issues of the stance. It could fix like 1 out of 4 issues why this build can’t be played on par with other topdog rdps classes. It won’t prevent other abilities from being reworked/buffed/nerfed.
Also, if it wouldn’t be desirable, there is no sense in whole idea of 15pt skills.
Since they are that high in the trees, they must bring something huge to the table.
Look at dok/wps 15pt, it fixes enormous problem of the build and gives juicy bonuses.
Someday there will be a WoDS analog for BO which most certainly will be a 15pt ability. It could bring 2h BO to the whole new level.
There is no point in making those skills “optional”, they must be tied to certain specs empowering them.
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Acidic
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] new 15pt ability in Path of The Scout . [Close Date: 22nd May]

Post#74 » Mon May 14, 2018 10:34 pm

The dok 15 point skill is utility based and not that directed to damage also with a 5 min cool down .
I just see the 15 point you suggest as having way to short a cool down and aimed at 1v1 rather than group or utility.

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daniilpb
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] new 15pt ability in Path of The Scout . [Close Date: 22nd May]

Post#75 » Mon May 14, 2018 11:04 pm

Acidic wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:34 pm
The dok 15 point skill is utility based and not that directed to damage also with a 5 min cool down .
I just see the 15 point you suggest as having way to short a cool down and aimed at 1v1 rather than group or utility.
Dude, please, it’s 30 seconds cooldown with the tactic which has 100% pickrate in dps build. It’s 100% diracted to dps build and tied to dual wield/2hander. So, please, just don’t...
1v1? I told you already that ability is spirit damage and SW can’t debuff it therefore w/o SM or AM it will deal ~100 damage with every hit. Good luck 1v1ing with it against horde of witch elfs and montro marauders. Top 10 pranks, no less.
Don’t know about your long weeks or whatnot but, please, don’t look silly
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] new 15pt ability in Path of The Scout . [Close Date: 22nd May]

Post#76 » Tue May 15, 2018 12:54 am

As I recall it, UF was the lazy devs way of balancing SW damage so they could concentrate on the OP classes that everyone wanted to play instead of fixing all of the SW abilities. UF was basically a really bad band-aid in live. (I suspect) it ended up OP here in RoR because the devs are actually taking the time to fix the real problem. As I see it, this is a replacement for UF in Scout that doesn't make the newly balanced Skirmish & Assault damage OP. (It is a bit more complicated to balance Scout damage through the existing abilities because both Eagle Eye and Broad head are core abilities available in any stance.)

(Note, I basically have zero opinion this change one way or the other. I ran scout primary for a few months then ditched it and could never force myself run it primary again for more than 20 minutes.)
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Dabbart
Posts: 1970

Re: [Shadow Warrior] new 15pt ability in Path of The Scout . [Close Date: 22nd May]

Post#77 » Tue May 15, 2018 3:09 am

Spoiler:
15pt abilities are a great concept. But they need to be worth the investment, and shouldn't be on a standard CD(totally my opinion). Great idea, but it's too weak, and 30s CD may be the reasoning for it, but incorrectly imo.

let's compare apples to apples.
Spoiler:
Witch Brew is a 13pt, requires mechanic, 10s CD, and hits up to 6 times. I have no idea what the duration is, but I believe it's more than 10s. No idea on the ICD. It's been awhile since I played WE(slightly longer since I played SW)

Shadow Walker would be a 15pt, hits 10 times, 10s duration, 30s CD, 1s ICD.

Note: Making the assumption SW and WB's tooltip damage are equal in spec. As well as STR/BS/weapon DPS additions or lack-thereof(since SW is at this point a theoretical ability).
So, 4 more attacks and triple the CD is worthy of 15pt that seriously limits your build quality. There seems to be an extreme power difference here. In the spirit of the WP 15pt ability
Spoiler:
In Pursuit(new WP 15pt), removes snares, roots, disarms, and silencing effects, makes you immune from snares for 5s, and increases your movement speed by 50 while active. Cooldown is 5min. 2h hammer required.
I believe similar effects, but targeted towards a stationary RDPS should be input. For instance, immune/reduced chance to being set-back, cannot be interrupted, +% range on all attacks, reduced cast-times, immune to Disarm etc. This would require a longer CD and possibly reduced duration depending on the level though. I don't play SW, so I wont attempt to say what would be the best fit. But straight proc DPS seems really weak.

Edit: possibly add a Forced Root, similar to the WPs 2h requirement logic. Oh yea, and I am making the wild assumption this is all possible code wise.

I like the idea of magically empowered arrows though. But if you are going to invest that lvl of mastery points to a single spec to get the ability, why not let it empower the Path? I don't believe Shadow Walker as it stands would be worth taking, other than a few solo or lul specs. But I see no reason not to replace worthless, M4s with something that will see use, and Rain of Steel is pretty redundant.

P.S. can we give it a different name? SWs using SW seems strange to me.
OP was updated. Don’t mean to +1, but my “concerns” are negated by the update and don’t want to retype agreements. Looks like a fun ability now.
Last edited by Dabbart on Tue May 15, 2018 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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daniilpb
Posts: 591

Re: [Shadow Warrior] new 15pt ability in Path of The Scout . [Close Date: 22nd May]

Post#78 » Tue May 15, 2018 12:22 pm

I reworked the proposal.
Added scales, one limitation and also tweaked numbers.
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darude83
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] new 15pt ability in Path of The Scout . [Close Date: 22nd May]

Post#79 » Tue May 15, 2018 12:54 pm

A 15 pt. ability should not be a flat dmg buff. If you want to model it towards group utility, give it an AP-draining component.

I personally would much rather see an ability for soloing, a heal/stealth ability that turns Scout into a viable solo build, since there already are multiple grp builds avaible.
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ragafury
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Re: [Shadow Warrior] new 15pt ability in Path of The Scout . [Close Date: 22nd May]

Post#80 » Tue May 15, 2018 1:44 pm

I think it's a good / fleshed out propossal and indeed lorefriendly.
can't say too much since I'm not a huge SW / SH player and actually should keep my nose out of this.

my concern:
not sure about the interactions with ASW for smallscale (burst overkill) and LA (RR70 spec with 15 left 12 right with PD) spam in RvR (though that's not my biggest concern).

It reminds me a bit of UF light and sugarfree. (so basically a worse UF)

maybe it would need to be limited to corresponding spells / abilities of the scout tree or exclude assault tree and LA / Barrage etc.

I could be totally off ofc; hard to say without seeing it ingame and being on the receiving end.
It still could be adjusted after implementation if it's overperforming.
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