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[All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough

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Nameless
Posts: 732

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#161 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:10 pm

Disrupt/dodge from renown is too cheap for the current state of the game. Make it same value like crits and you will see less disrupt cos many will skip it. At future when balance changes toward favouring offence roll back it to its current state
Mostly harmless

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Luuca
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#162 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:36 pm

Tesq wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:52 pm
Flavorburst wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:21 am
adamthelc wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:12 am
There should be upside AND a downside to how you build a character. Right now what is the downside for a healer to putting a lot into disrupt?
You get rekt by mdps.
that would happen if the resource you will have to invest to protect yourself from rdps wont allow you to invest other for protect yourself from melee; atm you can invest in have both and sicne both are in different place like armor tali or disruot/dosge from renown there is no way to make critical choices in that regard. You have all and you also get something for free from min 700 willpwoer on every healers.
I assert that healers do not get 700 Willpower for free. Just like Sorcs and BWs don't get 700 INT for free. They are gearing and speccing and slotting and using talismans for that level of stat.

As I see it, the issues is the glass cannons are not getting the reward for their investment because the counter investment (at similar cost) is too strong. The answer is to provide a self-determined way to improve the rewards for the Magical RDPS. A blanket nerf to all classes for Disrupt would mean MRDPS does not have to give up anything for the reward and the intended victims have no way, arguably, to counter this blanket nerf. A better way is to give the MRDPS a method they can employ to increase their strikethrough. If that is a tactic slot, or a gear set, it then become a trade off for them of gear or utility in tactics. If on the other hand, we simply make the distance to target increase strikethrough or decrease strikethrough based upon actual distance at time of cast completion (near being higher and far being lower) for the attacker on Single Target Spells OR the distance to target increase disrupt %s or decrease disrupt %s based upon actual distance at time of cast completion (near being lower %s and far being Higher %s) to reduce the disrupt rate of the intended target. In this way, the MRDPS caster can use positioning and calculated risks to gain an advantage.

My method, while not 100% sure it can be implemented at all, would be the most balanced compromise of all I have read. A blanket nerf costs the MRDPS nothing and disadvantages all non MRDPS. Balance on RoR has always been looked at through the risk-reward lens. Why is this issue any different?
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Tesq
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#163 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:58 pm

Spoiler:
Luuca wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:36 pm
Tesq wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:52 pm
Flavorburst wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:21 am


You get rekt by mdps.
that would happen if the resource you will have to invest to protect yourself from rdps wont allow you to invest other for protect yourself from melee; atm you can invest in have both and sicne both are in different place like armor tali or disruot/dosge from renown there is no way to make critical choices in that regard. You have all and you also get something for free from min 700 willpwoer on every healers.
I assert that healers do not get 700 Willpower for free. Just like Sorcs and BWs don't get 700 INT for free. They are gearing and speccing and slotting and using talismans for that level of stat.

As I see it, the issues is the glass cannons are not getting the reward for their investment because the counter investment (at similar cost) is too strong. The answer is to provide a self-determined way to improve the rewards for the Magical RDPS. A blanket nerf to all classes for Disrupt would mean MRDPS does not have to give up anything for the reward and the intended victims have no way, arguably, to counter this blanket nerf. A better way is to give the MRDPS a method they can employ to increase their strikethrough. If that is a tactic slot, or a gear set, it then become a trade off for them of gear or utility in tactics. If on the other hand, we simply make the distance to target increase strikethrough or decrease strikethrough based upon actual distance at time of cast completion (near being higher and far being lower) for the attacker on Single Target Spells OR the distance to target increase disrupt %s or decrease disrupt %s based upon actual distance at time of cast completion (near being lower %s and far being Higher %s) to reduce the disrupt rate of the intended target. In this way, the MRDPS caster can use positioning and calculated risks to gain an advantage.

My method, while not 100% sure it can be implemented at all, would be the most balanced compromise of all I have read. A blanket nerf costs the MRDPS nothing and disadvantages all non MRDPS. Balance on RoR has always been looked at through the risk-reward lens. Why is this issue any different?
i dont agree :

1-healers in fatc get willpower for free, no healer spec willpower in renown, they all get it from gear(so by default) and tactic if there is nothing else wort taken from tactics so is base stats which increase heals by very few in return); compare this to DPS which all spec into str/bal/int and you will se what i mean.
-> healers is the ONLY ARCHTYPE which primary stats (str/bal/int/willp) also provide avoidance which amke the system flawed, it should give disrupt bypass too as int and it will also solve the problem of healers not be able to hit; or provide half to both.

2-the problem is specific aka ppl have problems hitting healers with direct skills and use dots on all, so:
-there is 1 problem type of skill related -> dots
-and 1 problem archtype related-> healers

you dont hit a tank? he had invested whole renown into block /parry/dodge /disrupt he's using hold the line and is a tank ; you should probably try hit something else his role is in fact be hard to be kill

-you dont hit a melee ? we got a problem
-you dont hit a rdps ? we got a problem
-you dont hit a healer ? we have a problem

of these 4 sich above ppl are of course (look videos) raging about ONLY the last one, aka why all classes should be weakned vs casters when it's all fault of 1 archtype?

solution is nerf that archtype only

regarding dots its because the game was not intended to have dots defendable; it was a ror team choice and probably even for the good tough assign the same % of be defend that a direct hit is probably wrong (ppl should cleanse activly as counter not hope in avoidance, there is a worth cleanse tactic on rp/zeal not used cuz ppl are able to deal with dots in otherways...)

so

A) nerf healer disrupt from willpwoer gain
-additonally give em bypass in return of the % they lost for disrupt so you solve a bit the healers lifetaps not hitting problem too
B) dot avoidance is = half of direct ability

these are specific solutions to specific problems a general disrupt/dodge nerf can only go wrong; even if that was the case; the safer sich where dodge/disrupt where separated (pre 1.3.8) into 2 diff renown ability (with higher cost ) also saw higher block from renown skill (was 12% if i not mistake). Still rdps dominance which lead to the change should anyway improve that set up by make change to costs and values so that yes healers cant be durable as tanks in specific sich nor tanks get downside from the currently sich fom teh change.

General buff to a whole archtype is wrong dosent matter if directional as per proposal when the problem are only few classes in game (4 healers), still a worth solution is go back to pre 1.3.8 idea (with some tuning) where:

C) all have less access to dodge/disrupt but tank have more block so you do not nerf tanks archtype, but basically nerf all the ppl that sould be rightfully be hit by casters.
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Fallenkezef
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#164 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:10 am

I don't see why casters shouldn't be rewarded for positional play or why anyone else shouldn't be punished for turning their back on a caster as they would be for turning their back on a melee.
Alea iacta est

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Darosh
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#165 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:04 pm

Fallenkezef wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:10 am
I don't see why casters shouldn't be rewarded for positional play or why anyone else shouldn't be punished for turning their back on a caster as they would be for turning their back on a melee.
Enlighten us; how can you avoid turning your back to McDerpington's rdps assisttrain - sitting on max range, in a bush, behind a tree or on a wall - in ORvR.
Enlighten us; how does McDerpington benefit from another layer of RNGesus's unwanted luv - how do you envision McDerpington to consciously utilize the strikethrough (outside of zerg-surf and pew-pew'ing already bailing [yay order pugs, personified reluctance] opposition)?

Don't mind the phrasing, I am bored.
Congratulations.

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live4treasure
Posts: 267

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#166 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:12 pm

Fallenkezef wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:10 am
I don't see why casters shouldn't be rewarded for positional play or why anyone else shouldn't be punished for turning their back on a caster as they would be for turning their back on a melee.
Because it's going to be a very rare circumstance which most likely doesn't warrant the time invested into coding it. Additionally, not only is it going to be a very rare occurence, but it's also going to be an unfair one, because casters get to reap the positional benefits while staying at a safe distance, while melee have to fight tooth and nail for it.

----------------------------
@Tesq
I agree that the only real problem is hitting healers, and the safest way to fix this, is to slightly decrease the amount of disrupt provided by the willpower stat. I believe someone in this thread provided a very solid suggestion on how to adjust the current disrupt formula, perhaps that could be a start. Willpower turning into disrupt strikethrough, which is what Tesq above me suggested, seems like an extremely problematic change, because it trivializes builds like DPS RP/Zealot and other hybrid healer specs by allowing them to essentially be a full healer in stats, while still capable of bringing whatever utility they had. Their damage component becomes completely unnecessary, and thus it kills an entire playstyle which I believe has a right to exist.

In general, when such suggestions are posted, perhaps it would be nice to keep in mind that healer classes also have damage specs and that there are people who enjoy playing them. DPS tank mastery trees and abilities are given a considerable amount of attention and people are rather careful not to push them too far out of viability. It's my hope that the same approach will be given to other hybrid specs as well. Which is why, once again, I think willpower giving disrupt strikethrough is a terrible idea. Before the avoidance changes, healers were capable of stacking roughly 350-450 intellect and by doing so were made capable of landing most of their class abilities with a reasonable amount of success. However, they weren't capable of doing so just as a baseline. Stacking the necessary amount of intellect came with an opportunity cost, meaning that it diminished them in other areas, such as pure healing power or survivability. Perhaps placing the game in a state where 450 intellect means that a healer has a reasonable chance of applying his abilities to other characters would be a more balanced solution than allowing Willpower to have disrupt strikethrough on top of granting the healer disrupt. But that's really neither here nor there, since the topic of discussion in this thread has more to do with providing casters with a way to pressure healers more reliably.
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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Tesq
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Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#167 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:30 pm

Spoiler:
live4treasure wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:12 pm
Fallenkezef wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:10 am
I don't see why casters shouldn't be rewarded for positional play or why anyone else shouldn't be punished for turning their back on a caster as they would be for turning their back on a melee.
Because it's going to be a very rare circumstance which most likely doesn't warrant the time invested into coding it. Additionally, not only is it going to be a very rare occurence, but it's also going to be an unfair one, because casters get to reap the positional benefits while staying at a safe distance, while melee have to fight tooth and nail for it.

----------------------------
@Tesq
I agree that the only real problem is hitting healers, and the safest way to fix this, is to slightly decrease the amount of disrupt provided by the willpower stat. I believe someone in this thread provided a very solid suggestion on how to adjust the current disrupt formula, perhaps that could be a start. Willpower turning into disrupt strikethrough, which is what Tesq above me suggested, seems like an extremely problematic change, because it trivializes builds like DPS RP/Zealot and other hybrid healer specs by allowing them to essentially be a full healer in stats, while still capable of bringing whatever utility they had. Their damage component becomes completely unnecessary, and thus it kills an entire playstyle which I believe has a right to exist.

In general, when such suggestions are posted, perhaps it would be nice to keep in mind that healer classes also have damage specs and that there are people who enjoy playing them. DPS tank mastery trees and abilities are given a considerable amount of attention and people are rather careful not to push them too far out of viability. It's my hope that the same approach will be given to other hybrid specs as well. Which is why, once again, I think willpower giving disrupt strikethrough is a terrible idea. Before the avoidance changes, healers were capable of stacking roughly 350-450 intellect and by doing so were made capable of landing most of their class abilities with a reasonable amount of success. However, they weren't capable of doing so just as a baseline. Stacking the necessary amount of intellect came with an opportunity cost, meaning that it diminished them in other areas, such as pure healing power or survivability. Perhaps placing the game in a state where 450 intellect means that a healer has a reasonable chance of applying his abilities to other characters would be a more balanced solution than allowing Willpower to have disrupt strikethrough on top of granting the healer disrupt. But that's really neither here nor there, since the topic of discussion in this thread has more to do with providing casters with a way to pressure healers more reliably.
Spoiler:
i think that provde a bit of disrupt from willpower (not the same ratio as int tought ) can only make hybrid spec better due be able to land hits i dont really think it gona push the dps healer offensive spec at all. aka willpower give 50% of his actually contribution to striketrought and 50% to disrupt instead 100% to disrupt. basicaly over 700 it would be like 350 bypass; so you can counter 350 / 700 enemy points. it s not a total bypass nor a dmg increase (you need int stack not willpower) as said should be a way to make things more viable for classes like am/sh which are core hybrid, for dok/wp this have no effect at all and zealot/rune convert all points when switching stance so it should all balance out/have no effect on off spec...
Image

-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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live4treasure
Posts: 267

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#168 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:39 pm

Spoiler:
i think that provde a bit of disrupt from willpower (not the same ratio as int tought ) can only make hybrid spec better due be able to land hits i dont really think it gona push the dps healer offensive spec at all. aka willpower give 50% of his actually contribution to striketrought and 50% to disrupt instead 100% to disrupt. basicaly over 700 it would be like 350 bypass; so you can counter 350 / 700 enemy points. it s not a total bypass nor a dmg increase (you need int stack not willpower) as said should be a way to make things more viable for classes like am/sh which are core hybrid, for dok/wp this have no effect at all and zealot/rune convert all points when switching stance so it should all balance out/have no effect on off spec...
It doesn't make them more hybrid than they were before though, it just makes them healers with extra stuff, which, afaik, is just a straight buff. It pushes out dps healers because their damage already isn't spectacular and they are usually taken because of the utility they bring to the table by being able to land valuable debuffs due to their high intellect. If a pure healer build is able to bring that same utility while switching out the mediocre damage for their far more excellent healing (they even get an extra tactic slot because they don't need to slot in divine fury), it makes any viability the dps specs could ever have hoped to have absolutely null and void. Giving half strikethrough is usually going to already be good enough to hit through regular dps disrupt rates. I'm 100% against it and I don't think there's a single argument, unless your goal is to just delete certain specs out of the game, that could convince me it would be a beneficial change.

Tbh, I think everything that could have been discussed about the topic has already been discussed at this point. There's no new solution to the problem of healer disrupt rates being too overbearing to bring to the table, as everything has been mentioned. Altering the willpower-to-disrupt conversion formula, giving people strikethrough, positional strikethrough, giving dots more strikethrough... It's down to what the devs decide is the best option at this point.
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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anarchypark
Posts: 1398

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough [Close Date TBD]

Post#169 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:18 am

have you noticed increased success of mara pull ?
they wait for target's showing back
and pick easy candy.

rdps will have much easier time to aim backside.
ofc not at first encounter.
wait for battle to run half course, you'll see a lot of opportunities.

what does rdps pay for it?
just stay behind cannon podders.
another free hmmm?
or ' loan ' if free is too strong word.

compared to any other roles
rdps enjoys too much free stuffs,
until they get caught.

I mean, if you wanna zero risk leeching play it's rdps.
( not all rdps do it, i know )
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dansari
Posts: 2495

Re: [All] Positional Disrupt Strikethrough

Post#170 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:53 pm

This is irrelevant now as the disrupt changes were reverted.
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