Terrible Embrace (range check, defensibility)

[Telen]

This argument that the mara cant dmg while the wl can during pull is capricious at best. Its very rare you pull when theres something worth focus in melee range.

[noisestorm]

This argument that the mara cant dmg while the wl can during pull is capricious at best. Its very rare you pull when theres something worth focus in melee range.

Exactly.

360° Defense due to int and not str good? yes/no

I agree with bloodi in that I think keeping an ability in check due to RNG is bad design and should be avoided. On the other hand I think TE with a STR-check might be too strong. Is it possible to have multiple defense checks on an ability? Like 4 checks for disrupt and if 2 pass then target gets pulled, otherwise TE gets disrupted? I feel like a 30s ability does not need lucky disrupts to counter it

It is not entirely random, because there are a few ways to actually increase this factor. Be it stacking of Hold the Line, WH disrupt sigil and a handful of morale abilities. If you were forced to face your target due to it needing a parry, you cannot run away from it at all with those buffs and that is exactly what i personally dont want to see changed. Keep it disruptable.

Also i am not really sure if having several defense checks during the casttime is a good idea either actually. Just favors even more rng which you yourself claimed to be a bad idea..

[Bretin]

This argument that the mara cant dmg while the wl can during pull is capricious at best. Its very rare you pull when theres something worth focus in melee range.

exactly

I thought i could keep this argument out of the thread but here it comes: That's simply a "l2p issue" and the crucial difference between Fetch and Terrible Embrace. As i mentioned before those abilities do have a total different use. While the marauder is able to prevent kiting by a combination of Flame of Fate and Terrible Embrace the White Lion has an outstanding mobility, ensnare and burst to punish rdps classes. Hence he barely pulls people to close a gap / kill a rdps. What makes Fetch great is the fact that it's a control ability equal to a knock down for the costs of a root/kick immunity. If you use Fetch in melee range the target will be knocked into the air - fetched - and that allows the WL (+friends) to kill and control the desired target. Sending your pet into 12+ enemies where it most likely dies can really be determined as a l2p issue and is a result of people comparing classes 1:1 even if they work totally different.

back to the topic:

i think the ability check on marauder should stay as it is right now. you usually use this ability to either open a fight by pulling a mdps or as a counter to rdps. both archetypes usually dont spec into dodge/disrupt unless they want to sacrifice their damage potential. if they do so they should be allowed to have a higher defense potential and survive longer e.g. they should have a higher chance to not get pulled. again therefor they sacrifice damage. with the base willpower / dodge/disrupt any dps class barely disrupts any pull.

[noisestorm]

Sending your pet into 12+ enemies where it most likely dies can really be determined as a l2p issue and is a result of people comparing classes 1:1 even if they work totally different.

Noone said anything about sending your pet into 2 groups. Even in a 6v6 where you could potentially pull a healer or rangeDD, while still having nontank melees in your range you lose a huge chunk of your damage as WL. Also it does not matter if you use fetch and TE gameplaywise in a different way, because they are nonetheless mechanically very similar(equal). If one takes your silent hint and deem fetch as "too op" in melee range, because your target is airborne too long and you get a lot of etxra free damage on it, then this is a point for another discussion. No need to mention this here.

[Bretin]

Also it does not matter if you use fetch and TE gameplaywise in a different way, because they are nonetheless mechanically very similar(equal).

and i assume in your eyes the WL is similar to the Mrd as well, right?

Fetch and TE share one component - the pull -. They can't be called similar since they work 100% different. An easy solution to figure that is to compare their defensability, ingame behavior and execution.

If one takes your silent hint and deem fetch as "too op" in melee range, because your target is airborne too long and you get a lot of etxra free damage on it, then this is a point for another discussion. No need to mention this here.

for the record: it's not a silent hint it's pointing out how an ability can be used when one starts to look over the edge of a plate. the marauder could do the same but would loose damage due to the casttime on TE. hence why i call them equally strong through out this whole thread . both do have pros and cons.

[Penril]

360° Defense due to int and not str good? yes/no I agree with most people who prefer it being based on Int. Maybe TE is meant to directly counter rDPS and not exactly healers.

Endcast-Rangecheck too strict? yes/no I think the endcast-rangecheck was fine. Else you could have a Mara using his pull and then immediately backtracking, possibly getting out of range of an Order interrupt (Flahsbang Grenade, Taunt, etc).

Range itself good/bad ? I think it was perfecly fine with the endcast-rangecheck. TE is a very powerfull skill that, when used correctly and in coordination with your group, will give you a free kill. Yes; this isn't the case when fighting a coordinated premade who knows how to counter it. But even in these fights, TE is still very useful for catching your intended target: SW, BW, even healers... or are people suggesting TE fails 100% of the time against healers? I had a premade last tuesday and the Mara in our group pulled several AM's in the session.

Interrupt possibilites appropriate? Yes.

tl;dr: I think the endcast-rangecheck is (was?) fine. If Maras/Destro think range is too short and they still need other tools for catching Order, i would suggest making a new thread looking at Mutated Energy and finding a way to make it useful while not being OP. But honestly, there are several other classes we should be discussing before we even think of buffing Mara in any way.

[bloodi]

Do we really want a skill that pulls healers sometimes?

So TE will be fine as long as healers disrupt it? And if they dont we blame rng and move onto the next fight? Do you really think this is fun for anyone? Just fire TE on a healer till it works?

Balancing skills around binary outcomes, specially when it works is as powerful as it is, its a really bad idea.

I would really want it to be 100% success rate outside immunities and FM, not RNG based, i cant understand the idea of letting it be a tool to pull rdps and sometimes, everyone else, its really odd to me.

[Penril]

Do we really want a skill that pulls healers sometimes?

So TE will be fine as long as healers disrupt it? And if they dont we blame rng and move onto the next fight? Do you really think this is fun for anyone? Just fire TE on a healer till it works?

Balancing skills around binary outcomes, specially when it works is as powerful as it is, its a really bad idea.

I would really want it to be 100% success rate outside immunities and FM, not RNG based, i cant understand the idea of letting it be a tool to pull rdps and sometimes, everyone else, its really odd to me.

Do we really want a skill that pulls healers sometimes? Can't talk for everyone, but in my case i think i do. A succesful pull on a healer usually wins you the fight if you manage to kill him, which is not hard if you use a KD when he lands. He will only have one other healer helping him. If he is still alive when he gets back up he will be outoing heal-debuffed (on top of other debuffs). If you kill him you only need to interrupt the rez. Now, if you pull a rDPS, you still have his 2 healers cleansing/shielding/healing him, and he just needs to focus on escaping. Even if he dies, he can be immediately rezzed (you can interrupt one healer from rezzing, but interrupting both is harder). So based on that, i think it is fair that pulling a healer is harder than pulling a DPS. Tanks? Meh, i don't think anyone wants to pull a tank.

Also, the only healer who would be really affected by a Str-based Pull (or a 100% succes rate pull like you suggest) is AM. A WP with AoE detaunt is be able to use Repent before he lands (immediately detaunting everyone 30ft around the Mara) and combined with his armor (and group support) he has a much easier time surviving. A RP can be super tanky and still heal himself while running away from Destro. An AM has a much harder time surviving through pulls, at least from what i have experienced/seen.

[bloodi]

That is the point, if the skill is so powerful, then lets balance that power, not just let them use it sometimes due to RNG.

If pulls are so good vs ams, what fun ams will have being pulled sometimes while others disrupting it? Imagine the fun and joy of playing and just relying on that guy failing his pull for you to be able to play.

Give them a 100% pull and then balance around that.

[Telen]

Best counter which other games use to counter pulls would be to give a friendly pull to magus/engie. Its something I suggested on live and Keaven liked the idea of.