Terrible Embrace (range check, defensibility)

[Stmichael1989]

Unless I'm mistaken, if it's made a str check, then it's defended by parry, right? While it would certainly eliminate a squishy archmage or bright wizard's chance to defend against it, you might end up with a lower chance of success against everyone else considering how much more prevalent parry is than disrupt.

That said, considering y'all won't be adding an end cast check for range, would you consider increasing the animation speed? Part of the annoyance I have with TE is that it doubles as both a pull and as de-facto CC.

[Penril]

Spoiler:

a) Not every skill of every rdps has 100ft range. E.g. imo the currently most viable BW builds include FFB which has 80ft range. With some tolerance you're standing at 75ft which is just two small steps away from being in pull range. I'm not too sure about the most common SW/Engis builds but skill range wise they could be even more effected.

b) The assumption that you can just walk away because the marauder is snared and you are not doesn't hold up in larger scale fights (9vs9+, your average SC). There are plenty of ranged snares available and the occasional def tank running around among the healer/rdps.

On a general note I like the current implementation. It can punish misplays or risktaking maneuvers but isn't anymore a free kill on a softtarget that was once within 65ft of a marauder.

a) Every rDPS class in the game has a few 100ft skills. So if they think a Mara is trying to pull them, they can easily stay out of range and continue attacking.

You say some of rDPS best skills have a 80ft range? Great! Using your most powerful skills should involve some risk. Guess what is the range of mDPS most powerful skills? Yeah, 5 ft.

BW: All the spells on a DoT rotation have 100ft range. Which is their most powerful spec. They also have an instant-snare (Withering Heat). BTW, what is FFB? I tried looking for a skill/tactic like that and couldn't find it. Please don't tell me you meant Fireball Barrage?

SW: Their most common spec has Powerful Draw, which gives all their Skirmisher skills a +50% range bonus. So from 65ft they become 98ft. These include inc-heal debuff, ranged KD, ranged snare. Add to that Glass Arrow, which can reduce the range of TE by 25% (to 49ft) if they are really afraid of being pulled.

*Both BW and SW have a ranged KD they can use on the Mara if they notice him charging towards them. This gives them 3 secs to get out of pull range.

Engie: Grenadier Engies are the ones who really suffer with pulls. Rifleman always stay out of range, and Tinkerers (assuming they have guard/heals) want to stay close to the enemy backline.

Healers: They have more Disrupt than rDPS, and their heals have a range of 100ft (group heals) and 150ft (ST heals).

b) Yes, it holds up in SC's. And Destro only has one reliable ranged snare (SH). I guess Covenant of Celerity helps a lot but still, it is a proc. And if you let a Defensive tank get close to you, that is your fault. You should kite away from him even if he hits like a wet noodle, because he can use a KD/punt/root on you when you least expect it and then it is over for you.

[Reesh]

Yes, FBB = Fireball Barrage, and Yes, altogether with Nova it is almost required in a spec, to kill anything with all those cleanses running around.

[Penril]

Yes, FBB = Fireball Barrage, and Yes, altogether with Nova it is almost required in a spec, to kill anything with all those cleanses running around.

That sounds like a (group?) cleanse issue that has nothing to do with Terrible Embrace. And Nova's range is 100ft, so in your whole rotation you only have one 80ft skill.

I believe no one has succesfully debunked what was mentioned in the first page (that TE has several ways to be countered already) and for that reason, the end-cast range check should be removed (which it has already been done).

[Karast]

I think one of the reasons people are very bothered by TE and other pulls is that RoR is a much different environment than live was. Overall latency is much higher than during live, when there were more servers to choose from.

When people are playing with 300+ latency, it can be hard to spot that pull in time, and even if you move when you first see the animation on your screen, it's already gone off, and you've been pulled. People port around a bit, and an enemy that is 100ft away on your screen is actually much closer.

I think the mid and final distance checks are important.

The final check works as a bit of a band-aid for higher latency players. I know some people won't want to consider balancing off of latency issues, but that's a dynamic of this particular server, we have an international player base, people fighting and playing across continents, and some tweaks may need to be made because of that.

I think having TE work off of int is good. It makes it a tool focused on killing rdps / mdps who don't have high disrupt / block.

[Tesq]

I think it would be just k if it have end check,if 1 ppl is in melee and the flee away before cast end and is out for the skill range i do not get why if it's outside the range should be pulled anyway, that should be the same for other pulls as well. That's why there should be a end range check + compensation. To allow pull be dynamic but also not totally ingore ppl that exit out of range.
To be fair to order not having an end check is a bit imba, no matter how look at it, a range skill that end to have no range is too strong even if you have more tool to block it and anyway those tool require some attention, counterplay, positioning, also expose yourself or go in another position away from the running guarded player, and in case of multiple pull happening all togheter you cannot block em all, or you could not even be able to tab the right player. You can end to give also immunities to a player trying stop the pull.

[Vigfuss]

I think it would be just k if it have end check,if 1 ppl is in melee and the flee away before cast end and is out for the skill range i do not get why if it's outside the range should be pulled anyway, that should be the same for other pulls as well. That's why there should be a end range check + compensation. To allow pull be dynamic but also not totally ingore ppl that exit out of range.
To be fair to order not having an end check is a bit imba, no matter how look at it, a range skill that end to have no range is too strong even if you have more tool to block it and anyway those tool require some attention, counterplay, positioning, also expose yourself or go in another position away from the running guarded player, and in case of multiple pull happening all togheter you cannot block em all, or you could not even be able to tab the right player. You can end to give also immunities to a player trying stop the pull.

The way i read this thread, the end cast range check was already tested and scrapped. The mid cast range check still fails quite often, and people do get out of range. And there is counterplay especially from tanks.

[Tesq]

I think it would be just k if it have end check,if 1 ppl is in melee and the flee away before cast end and is out for the skill range i do not get why if it's outside the range should be pulled anyway, that should be the same for other pulls as well. That's why there should be a end range check + compensation. To allow pull be dynamic but also not totally ingore ppl that exit out of range.
To be fair to order not having an end check is a bit imba, no matter how look at it, a range skill that end to have no range is too strong even if you have more tool to block it and anyway those tool require some attention, counterplay, positioning, also expose yourself or go in another position away from the running guarded player, and in case of multiple pull happening all togheter you cannot block em all, or you could not even be able to tab the right player. You can end to give also immunities to a player trying stop the pull.

The way i read this thread, the end cast range check was already tested and scrapped. The mid cast range check still fails quite often, and people do get out of range. And there is counterplay especially from tanks.

i belive/understood it was an end check with out compensation that's i why i proposed one with compensation.

[jonyjones]

Spoiler:

[quote="Tesq"cast end and is out for the skill range i do not get why if it's outside the range should be pulled anyway, that should be the same for other pulls as well.[/quote]

other pull are instant so when ability is available due to range there is no need fo other check ability is available, target is in range. so i dont see what you speak about when you say other pulls?

i get it was best way agaisnt over extent and order has it instant. Order have meni rkd to make sure destro dont get too close (and too close for rkd is 100ft). when front are moving TE become nerfed due to time of cast, but in any case if you come 65ft away from enemy group you could be pulled i'm sorry for it. So if puling with a cast is more difficult why would you give it downside of its instant equivalent. I know we got ot keep bias order.

PS i think you should go mythics like, but if you want to bias more than live lets discuss it
anyway great job

spoiler by Penril - This is your first warning. Keep the "order/destro bias" comments out of the balance discussion forums.

[georgehabadasher]

I think one of the reasons people are very bothered by TE and other pulls is that RoR is a much different environment than live was. Overall latency is much higher than during live, when there were more servers to choose from.

When people are playing with 300+ latency, it can be hard to spot that pull in time, and even if you move when you first see the animation on your screen, it's already gone off, and you've been pulled. People port around a bit, and an enemy that is 100ft away on your screen is actually much closer.

I think the mid and final distance checks are important.

The final check works as a bit of a band-aid for higher latency players. I know some people won't want to consider balancing off of latency issues, but that's a dynamic of this particular server, we have an international player base, people fighting and playing across continents, and some tweaks may need to be made because of that.

I think having TE work off of int is good. It makes it a tool focused on killing rdps / mdps who don't have high disrupt / block.

I think this really hits to the heart of the problem. TE, more than any other ability, punishes high ping players. I'd guess that most of the people who say "TE is easy to counter with XXX" play in Europe or Eastern NA and have relatively low latency. Playing with higher ping means that if you can hit a mara with a 100 ft. range ability, then he's actually in range to pull you. Likewise for taunt, by the time your taunt has gone off, the pull has already happened.

The reason we have disagreement is that both both arguments are right. TE is both easy and almost impossible to counter -- depending on your latency to the server.