[Implemented] Destroy Confidence (existence)

[Azarael]

KotBS triple enchantment shatter:

- Does it serve any purpose other than directly countering a class which does not need countering (Shaman)?
- If not, then why should it be permitted to exist?

[sanii]

KotBS triple enchantment shatter:

- Does it serve any purpose other than directly countering a class which does not need countering (Shaman)?
- If not, then why should it be permitted to exist?

It is also a 'kind-off' counter to a proc build that relies on frozen touch, as you can cover FT with daemonic chill and shaman group resistance buff, and with triple shatter you can remove everything. As such it has a purpose apart from countering shaman specifically.

That said , without the ft proc builds in mind it only serves as a counter to shaman and it might be worth looking into ways to balance either the tactic or shaman reliance on hots.

I'd also like to point out that slotting triple shatter does have decently high opportunity cost, especially if you run only 1 knight considering their kit is overloaded with good and necessary tactics (oh the irony).

Edit : The last thing that came to my mind isn't something anyone would really use it for and its possibly 'minor' , but it allows you to immediately shatter magus armor debuff ( as a magus you can cover your own armor debuff with your group resistance buff and make it take 2 shatters to get through )

[TenTonHammer]

No it does not serve a purpose, it is an extremely powerful tool on an already rediciously strong class


1 GCD should not be able to nullify 3 gcds worth of healing from a Shammy, effectively rendering them useless in 6v6


And for gods sake before any kotbs mains try and say it like they did last time, no you do NOT need to "catch" the Shammy In order to remove it

[zumos2]

It is also a 'kind-off' counter to a proc build that relies on frozen touch, as you can cover FT with daemonic chill and shaman group resistance buff, and with triple shatter you can remove everything. As such it has a purpose apart from countering shaman specifically.

This would be an argument to keep the triple shatter or nerf it to two shatter. Another way of approaching this would be from the shaman perspective. Maybe make Do Sumfin Useful not shatterable or something. In general I think triple shatter is very strong, at the same time you have to drop something very strong to pick it up. So I guess this decision also depends on what lays ahead for all the kobs tactics in general.

[Danielle]

It is also a 'kind-off' counter to a proc build that relies on frozen touch, as you can cover FT with daemonic chill and shaman group resistance buff, and with triple shatter you can remove everything. As such it has a purpose apart from countering shaman specifically.

This would be an argument to keep the triple shatter or nerf it to two shatter. Another way of approaching this would be from the shaman perspective. Maybe make Do Sumfin Useful not shatterable or something. In general I think triple shatter is very strong, at the same time you have to drop something very strong to pick it up. So I guess this decision also depends on what lays ahead for all the kobs tactics in general.

However, Destruction doesn't have the same counter to a proc build that is available to both sides and arguably stronger on Order. So apart from countering Shaman it also further serves to make Order superior over Destruction (in 6v6) which is also a thing that happens regardless of this tactic. Therefore on both counts it shouldn't exist.

[Azarael]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the concept of FT + FF covered by DC and M'B is replicable on Order side using FoR + CoF covered by FS and PS, with the added crusher that FoR also has a tactic improving its damage. If so, that does not justify Destroy Confidence. Also, the power of proc builds at the moment is really subject to consideration in and of itself.

I would rather not have to resort to very specific hacks like unshatterable DSU, btw, as we cannot change the typing and this will cause false shattering attempts on the client which the server will then block. If you can triple or even double shatter the likes of 'E,QB', the resist buff and the cleanse tactic, that's still bad enough for me, because the point is that Shaman shouldn't be subject to any kind of improved shattering at all.

[noisestorm]

I dare to say making DSU unshatterable is quite a major buff. You have to think that this also affects other classes that potentially can remove Enchantments (SM or WP). The secondary component on DSU doesnt really justify it being unshatterable if you ask me.

Also we have to say that a similar Procc Setup is possible for Order. BW has a tactic for increased proccs and while WP only has 1 dmging Procc it can be still somewhat abused with Slayers.
So saying that we 'need' it as a counter for Destro group, which Order has itself (while Destro does not have such a Tactic) somehow wont work either.


(PS:personally i am generally for removing the tactic,but im open for listening to everything )

[sanii]

Just to clarify i am not in favor of keeping tripple shatter , i am just trying to provide a wholistic picture of what it is good against and how it can be used in general.

The simple fact that it is SO good in countering a specific class is already reason enough for me to think it should be rebalanced or removed.

[georgehabadasher]

As someone who plays a knight I really don't see any reason for this tactic to exist.

[zumos2]

I would rather not have to resort to very specific hacks like unshatterable DSU, btw, as we cannot change the typing and this will cause false shattering attempts on the client which the server will then block. If you can triple or even double shatter the likes of 'E,QB', the resist buff and the cleanse tactic, that's still bad enough for me, because the point is that Shaman shouldn't be subject to any kind of improved shattering at all.

Is it not possible to change it to become a "buff" instead of enchantment, like you made ID from slayer into Ailment from being a debuff?

Also I wouldn't mind the triple shatter being removed, but we should also consider different solutions which may or not may be less obvious.