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[Partially implemented] Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

[Partially implemented] Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

Post#1 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:55 pm

- why? because BG mid path is argumentaly the most messed up and it need to be put in line with all other tank mid path
1) Because it's the only tank that get its form of avoidance from a) mid path + b) on 11 points and due to his low avoidance compared to all other tank this is not justified.
2) is not relevant to the meta at all right now, both rvr and sc

-why the swap with feeding on weakness:
1-while is true that BO/SM have their avoidance tactic on 3p, chosen not and this value -30%- is a lot more near the chosen value (25% from mixed defense)
2) sm/bo tactic increase % depend from stance and so are a lot weaker due the continuosly shift up and down, while the bg tactic is more stable and do not require even a direct event to proc like it does mixed defense.
3) ap tactic for mid path usually take upper tactic slot in mid path due the binded nature of the tactic to the path whom skills will be spam only inside dungeons
Last edited by Tesq on Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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noisestorm
Posts: 1727

Re: Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

Post#2 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:52 pm

From another topic:
TenTonHammer wrote: Furthermore you asked if i have any other change ideas, in terms of mastery tree changes trade the places of the parry and ap reduction tactics

Or a second option is to re arrange all 3 tactics like Bozzax orignialy suggested:
Spoiler:
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How this helps BG; BG is an inherently selfish tank it suffers from providing very little group utility and CC outside of KD and KB

Furthermore the required mastery point investment for damage mitigation and CC for BG is much higher for BG in relation to other tanks as pointed out by Bozzax the other day:
Bozzax wrote:Specialization points needed for basic guard mitigation / avoidance (~25% Parry or ~15% Block)
KOTBS 3pts
SM 0pts
IB 5pts
BO 0pts, 3pts
Chosen 0pts

Other tanks average: 3
Blackguard: 11
If nothing else this change would more or less standardize the required mastery point cost for access for Avoidance between tanks

And additionally if we were to go by the second option, the 3 point parry tactic would help 2H bg's become more durable if they chose to spec it, making it an alternative tactic option to soul killer
Posting this just to complement the other Topic from Tenton and to emphasize the normalization along all tanks for defense tactics here.

Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

Post#3 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:31 pm

Moving to Discussions.

Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

Post#4 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:40 pm

I like Tentonhammer's suggestions (swapping a few skills and tactics in Loathing). I thought of how the specs would look like:

1) Malice/Loathing: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:

This 2H tank would focus on DPS assisting, providing CD and AoE snare. He will be pretty tanky thanks to TF, and will mitigate much more guard damage thanks to ADM. Doesn't look OP since he is lacking all the nice tools from Anguish (anti detaunt, Soul Killer and Choking Fury).

2) Anguish/Loathing: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:

This BG would be incredibly tanky (unkillable maybe?) while having some pretty nice debuffs. The only problem I see here is that some might go for UF instead of, say, TF. They would still be pretty tanky (+30% to both parry/disrupt) so they could go for offensive gear/renown skills. Combined with UF and SK, they would be REALLY nasty in the enemy backlines.

3) Tri spec: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:

Basically your usual Malice/Anguish, except the 2H BG goes for extra parry instead of Anti-detaunt. In other words he opts for better Guard-damage mitigation instead of being undetauntable. Seems fair.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

Post#5 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:50 pm

i was suggesting to merge the thread but maybe is better keep every change separate if we start debunk every build it may take long, 1 change at time seems more easier to achive, also the balance rules i belive also suggest to identify the issue singolary

also i do not agree on those redisposition BG have no real panic button because with so low avoidance that buff is likely to be always one more than a panic button; the block channeling should be the last skill in the path which would be used anyway by def tank only and the armor buff should be the first avaiable skill while ye snare should be mid.

because
1) IB get it core so it seems reasonable have it no so high considering the difference in power between the 2 skill.
2)can be used by a 2h def set up which for bg is exatly for open rvr, which with that disposition would still lack that def tool.--> it would be more in par with a 2h SM that way.
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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

Post#6 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:08 pm

Tesq wrote:
because
1) IB get it core so it seems reasonable have it no so high considering the difference in power between the 2 skill.
2)can be used by a 2h def set up which for bg is exatly for open rvr, which with that disposition would still lack that def tool.--> it would be more in par with a 2h SM that way.
IB gets a core armor buff, but it doesn't stack with other armor buffs/pots so that part from the skill is kinda irrelevant. BG, on the other hand, can also reduce his chance to be crit (up to 45%) with Force of Fury. So I guess IB having a core armor buff is not a valid argument for having FoF too low in the tree.

However, I do agree with you on your second post: It would help 2H BGs a lot.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

Post#7 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:20 pm

well the trade off it's have 20 sec CD, still dosen't stack with armor potion too while armor buff from IB it's always avaibale and can be pass onto your protected
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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

Post#8 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:28 pm

As there are 6 tanks it is possible to find support for any disposition

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Personally I think CC should be 9pts, Avoidance 3pts

13pts gives Chosen, KOTBS incoming damage reduction (self). FoF does exactly this and that is why I think it should reside there. 11pts tactic is the closest thing on an IB as it lacks an ability and SM, BO trees are a complete mess.

(Swapping channel and FoF imo would potentially make BG op - yep I am serious)
Last edited by Bozzax on Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

Post#9 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:35 pm

ye but that because it suppose to be a panic button, panic button give damages reduction or total avoidance, crit reduction is not something you want as a s+b tank.
Not too much inclined over 1 of the 2 options i think BG would benefith the more from the snare moved down so whatever it takes to move it it's ok.
Still i think that S/b dosen't really need the block channeling so down in the mastery the s/b build is for pve/sc while the rvr build is 2h which is why it would be better for bg to be wanted to not explode due the 2h have that buff accessible.
To be realistic the only way to have a good durable bg in orvr 2h and do not explode it's have all those buff and also the t4 epic quest weapon to have a core 60% parry, or you just not bear the comparison to a 2h SM which also have for just 1 channeling 50% to all secondary def.
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Gobtar
Posts: 796

Re: Anger drives me swap with feeding on pain (swap only)

Post#10 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:00 pm

Tesq wrote:- why? because BG mid path is argumentaly the most messed up and it need to be put in line with all other tank mid path
1) Because it's the only tank that get its form of avoidance from a) mid path + b) on 11 points and due to his low avoidance compared to all other tank this is not justified.
2) is not relevant to the meta at all right now, both rvr and sc

-why the swap with feeding on weakness:
1-while is true that BO/SM have their avoidance tactic on 3p, chosen not and this value -30%- is a lot more near the chosen value (25% from mixed defense)
2) sm/bo tactic increase % depend from stance and so are a lot weaker due the continuosly shift up and down, while the bg tactic is more stable and do not require even a direct event to proc like it does mixed defense.
3) ap tactic for mid path usually take upper tactic slot in mid path due the binded nature of the tactic to the path whom skills will be spam only inside dungeons
It is important to note that in addition to the above, the BG is unique to being the only tank that does not have a native avoidance ability or tactic. The theme and preferred style of play is incentivized by these core elements. Core access to abilities such as Suppression (chosen lvl25 min +25% parry), and Eagle's Flight (SM lvl4 +25 parry, skill+mechanic based), paves the way for parry based tank play (2h and snb functionality). Where as Knights, IBs and BO have abilities and tactics that allows them to function optimally as SnB tanks.

In addition, these Core abilities and tactics of course can work in conjunction with the abilities and tactics that are added in their mastery tree. These options are not limiting however the options provided to the black guard are solely in their defensive tree and in comparison are lack luster.

While the purpose of this discussion is not to address the merits or failings of these other abilities, I bring them up only to bring to light the lack of identity the Black Guard currently possess, and making this tactic available easier does not make it low hanging fruit, it opens up mastery options, while being limited to a tactic ensures that it does not buff the already powerful pure damage of the Malice anguish build.

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 3:;0:0:0:0:

With this in mind the tactics play their role of determining your playstyle with a Cost per reward. Should you choose to take the parry tactic then you will have to lose one of your offensive tactics and abilities, but does not cost you enough that the build loses complete viability. For this reason I would bring the tactic down to 3 Slot, this "dip" will allow a new variety of specs yet the power level a pure DPS BG will diminish should they do so. Lastly. in order to enjoy the full power of this tactic in DPS mode, the Black Guard needs to pay somewhat closer attention to his mechanic, as the DPS style of play rewards spending hatred, not hording it.
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