Recent Topics

Ads

[Implemented] Group cleansing.

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.
Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#111 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:34 pm

You have to look at any significant AoE debuffs/dots the Shaman/AM CAN cleanse (if given a gcleanse).

Shaman (Curse/Ailment): Earthshatter, Slice Through? (not entirely sure since the snare comes from a tactic), Arcing Wind, Shatter Limbs. I'm sure I'm missing something, but from the looks of it, a gcleanse on Shaman would counter most of the AoE snares Order has. Classes it affects the most: KotBS, Slayer (IB not that much since it still has the option of an uncleansable, spammable AoE snare with Powered Etchings). Not that bad, I guess...

AM (Hex/Ailment): Wave of Scorn, Crimson Death, ALL Magus AoE dots. Classes it affects the most: BG and Magus. Looks very wrong to me.

This is why I think giving gcleanse to AM/Shaman is a bad idea. If gcleanse is too strong on Dok/WP, I would prefer seeing it changed/nerfed instead of giving an equivalent to other healers. I would go for option 1 suggested in this thread.

Ads
bloodi
Suspended
Posts: 1725

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#112 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:44 pm

Azarael wrote:As for bringing WP/DoK down... well, that's hard. Hard enough to be impossible with what we've got - we can't change cast times yet, there's no stomach for doing huge skill reworks anyway and we're dealing with a class that is supposed to be played in a completely different way (and I have no doubt that if it were forced to play in that way, viable or not, 95% of its users would immediately abandon it.)
Of course its possible, you can neuter gcleanse, you can put icds on the shields on crit, you can just remove group shield and give it to any other healer, hell, you can even destroy essence/smite and make them actually punch people if they want extra RF that doesnt come from the chalice/book.

But if some people calling the doomsday is enough for you to step back, we will never change anything, same happened with the 2h vs dualwied change, some guys say it will make WL/SM op and you dont change it, time passes and WL/SM is nowhere near where they said it would be and 2h bonus is still laughable compared to dual wield.

The game will not end because you nerf gcleanse, even if people say it again and again because those same people will call for the sky falling for every other change you want to make.

User avatar
Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#113 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:49 pm

Well, on one hand I've got people saying that gcleanse is necessary to stop an abundance of damage, on the other hand I've got AM/Shaman being the only healer without a significant cleanse tactic, then somewhere in the middle we have analyses that assume they have worked out how a theoretical DoK/Sham / WP/AM group is going to play while considering things from the WP/RP / DoK/Ze / DoK/DoK meta and people are using that as arguments against AM/Shaman having gcleanse... you'll have to forgive me if I'm not entirely sure where to go from here.

My instinct is to implement either 1b) or 4) on WP/DoK, trash CW II and CW III (wish I'd never implemented them), bring K'W down somehow (possibly limit number of debuffs it can cleanse at once) and give AM/Shaman an AoE cleanse linked to the tactic, with a higher cooldown when slotted. No doubt many will disagree.

bloodi
Suspended
Posts: 1725

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#114 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:58 pm

If the only thing holding the game together is wp/dok removing a debuff of the classes they can cleanse every 5 secs then we either have bigger problems or its not actually necessary at all, just too good to pass up.

The am/shaman do have a tactic and its actually quite good, its one of the tools used to heal on the move, what makes it good is the fact that you can stack it, specially now with the reduced cd on the mechanic you can get it 3 times on someone, so i dont see the point there, of course it doesnt remove 6 gcds with the use of one but its good enough.

More gcleanses just make other classes more clunky to play, the less the better.

User avatar
Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#115 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:13 pm

Azarael wrote:Well, on one hand I've got people saying that gcleanse is necessary to stop an abundance of damage, on the other hand I've got AM/Shaman being the only healer without a significant cleanse tactic, then somewhere in the middle we have analyses that assume they have worked out how a theoretical DoK/Sham / WP/AM group is going to play while considering things from the WP/RP / DoK/Ze / DoK/DoK meta and people are using that as arguments against AM/Shaman having gcleanse... you'll have to forgive me if I'm not entirely sure where to go from here.

My instinct is to implement either 1b) or 4) on WP/DoK, trash CW II and CW III (wish I'd never implemented them), bring K'W down somehow (possibly limit number of debuffs it can cleanse at once) and give AM/Shaman an AoE cleanse linked to the tactic, with a higher cooldown when slotted. No doubt many will disagree.
the mid ground is nerf the cd and make all healer g-cleanse, so that it's the same as have 1 g-cleanse as now but it cannot be exploited by CD decrease and using the dok version for everyone you can also make it back if you are skill enough to look at other partys and not only yours, furthermore it takes time to tab someone which also influence the efficency of the cleanse.

This way order that also have an easier access cd decrease balance the fact that dok have a m2 that can cleanse all; another gain it's the counter to those pesky aoe snare.
Last edited by Tesq on Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
Morf
Posts: 1247

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#116 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:16 pm

As someone who mains a heal shaman that would love some group wide heals/buffs other then group heal and resist buff i dont see group cleanse being the fix we need, i would much prefer shrug it off and magical infusion to affect group although that is a different discussion.

If the majority do agree that a group cleanse for sham/am on an increased cooldown is the way to go it will hurt small kite groups alot who take advantage of the stacking ishas encouragment/green cleanin.
Morfee - Shaman / Mynnos - Kotbs / Grubod - Black Orc / Snubz - Squig Herder

User avatar
drmordread
Suspended
Posts: 916

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#117 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:22 pm

Spoiler:
Can we take a moment to think about PUGs? WB's and SC's?

All of the proposed changes to the DoK/WP (As well as any other class) assume a prime group makeup. But what about that SC with one healer per group (if not one healer for both), or the PUG wb with 3 healers for the other 21 people?

A lot of the suggestions are being made by people who primarily play with the same people each day. People who belong to guilds where if you do not play X class at Y spec, you are kicked out.
How would these changes affect PUGS?

That said I vote for number 4. A longer CD would stop the constant spam of cleanse, and do the least harm in a PUG sC or WB situation.
Read the Balance Discussions rules. Balance won't be changed based on PUGs - Penril.
Image
Morrdread Ladydread Kickyerbutt Tamorrah Whisperrss SutSut Amniell
Lolyou Tahw Fortuna Sarissa Yiorrrgos
(and eight more to keep you guessing)

User avatar
Arbich
Suspended
Posts: 788

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#118 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:17 pm

drmordread wrote:
Spoiler:
Can we take a moment to think about PUGs? WB's and SC's?

All of the proposed changes to the DoK/WP (As well as any other class) assume a prime group makeup. But what about that SC with one healer per group (if not one healer for both), or the PUG wb with 3 healers for the other 21 people?

A lot of the suggestions are being made by people who primarily play with the same people each day. People who belong to guilds where if you do not play X class at Y spec, you are kicked out.
How would these changes affect PUGS?

That said I vote for number 4. A longer CD would stop the constant spam of cleanse, and do the least harm in a PUG sC or WB situation.
Read the Balance Discussions rules. Balance won't be changed based on PUGs - Penril.
Spoiler:
Could you show me which rule makes this argument invalid? "5. No PUG arguments." means something different, not?

I am more concerned that this rule is not enforced in this thread:

1. Do not make arguments based on engagements smaller than 6v6.

We are not interested in class performance and balance on scales smaller than 6v6. Period. Topics made based around such scales will be locked immediately, and posters making arguments which are based around performance at very small scales will be infracted. This rule primarily exists to keep 1on1 duelling topics out of the forum and to make it very clear that regardless of what anyone's opinion on the validity of duelling in Warhammer may be, we are not interested in dealing with it.

Except of Drmordred now, almost no one takes fights bigger than 6vs6 into account. AM and rp are superior regarding outside of own group healing/general performance.

When all balance-discussions should only look at how each class can perfom within its own group, change the rules to avoid confusion.

sorry for derailing the thread.

On more suggestion for discussion: remove group cleanse from DoK, give it shami (maybe also swap the debuffs they can remove), change group cleanse like in point 1b suggested (especially because of the LoS-issue), let DoK keep their morale 2 as it is, let WP their group cleanse (with change 1b in effect) and be ready for the uproar from almost all DoK/WP/shami/AM players. :D

Am > shami. AM itself is not underpowered (especially not after the last implemented changes), but because other classes are overpowered, he ranks 3. regarding the order-healers. Balancing other classes will buff the AM en passant (make prismatic shield great again!).
You can make arguments based on WBs. But balanced, organized WBs which have several tanks and ideally 8 healers. Not a PUG WB with one tank, 3 healers and 20 rDPS - Penril.
Arbich-BW/Xanthippe-WP/Schnipsel-AM

Ads
Geordy
Posts: 12

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#119 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:34 pm

Spoiler:
I want to express my concern for the WP as a class (since they are being targeted here).

I just recently stumbled upon this free shard so I only had the opportunity to read a few of the over 50 pages discussion about fixing WP's grace tree (and with it the melee/dps WP in general). From what Ive seen so far ingame there are 2H out there that grant AoE Repent. Is that what the megathread resulted in? I thought the problems with this way of playing the class were very well presented and a lot of good ideas and solutions were in that thread as well. But basically every solution was met by "We cant do it (yet)". To me it seemed as if you guys basically just gave up on improving the grace line and the DPS variant is still considered broken. Correct me if Im wrong.

The reason why Im bringing the above into this here discussion should be obvious: shouldnt it be the right approach to first fix the class to present the WP more options before taking away from the only currently viable option? I say before you take away from the class fix it first!
"Buff X before nerfing Y" argumentation with respect to the idea of adjusting a class at all is not permitted in the balance forum - Azarael

User avatar
Renork
Posts: 1208

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#120 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:29 am

Azarael wrote:
Renork wrote:If you nerf group cleanse you are effectively making battles end a lot faster and zerging a lot worse. If you are only taking into account "6v6" when balancing, expect to break a lot of things. This game was/is centered around keeps and siege, not just about "competitive 6v6" fights, whether people come to terms with that is a different story. On the other hand, if you give more healers group cleanse, then you are making siege fights last a lot longer and classes such as magus/engie worse. The 20% buff to range and damage did nothing for those two classes other than orient them more towards siege fights and being able to hit from weird angles due to how horrible terrain is on WAR.

65 ft reduction seems reasonable.
Don't know how you got into this from my post - the reason things are going to get worse for the zerg is because of RvR implementation next patch requiring control of many areas of the map and because siege weapons are there to punish a zerg for refusing to do so. None of this has anything to do with group cleanse, and I posted my post because people were raising fears about zerg play which will be irrelevant in large scale RvR next patch.
Arbich wrote:Copying class abilities is a lazy balance move. I don´t know about shammi, but AM already has the least problems with AP/Resource-management, while WP has most of all order-healers (if you ignore ap-drains). AM (as healer) has one of the better heal-debuffs on order-side or a good silence . AM has a much better snare than WP, an at least somewhat useful knockback and some nice debuff-skills.

AM should not get a group-cleanse.
Spoiler warning: They're getting one, though not as powerful as the WP/DoK one.

WP doesn't have problems with resource management. They're practically immune to AP drains, they're spoonfed resources from their offhands, Smite and Supplication as well as optionally by tactics. Let's not pretend WP and DoK aren't OP and that AM and Shaman aren't UP, shall we?

Those lovely debuff skills you mention are masked by a vast number of effects. AMs and Shamans will tell you they don't even cast those skills. The nice resist buff they bring is also masked by one (1) of the three KotBS and Chosen lolauras that they can have active at any time, so that doesn't matter either. Heal debuff or silence? They don't seem to justify taking an AM or Shaman in groups, do they?

WP and DoK perform where it counts, which is healing and not dying.
Penril's post closely summarizes what I meant. You are not helping under performing classes by giving two more healers group cleanse. I was speaking in terms of the big picture. I like your approach of experimenting with things; however, radical changes to group cleanse or potentially giving other healers the ability to group cleanse would literally change both small and large scale fights (and not exactly in a positive way). Some changes can be radical and not affect game play much, but this one doesn't fall in that category.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests