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[Implemented] Group cleansing.

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.
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Renork
Posts: 1208

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#101 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:05 pm

BrockRiefenstahl wrote:
Renork wrote:
Azarael wrote:You aren't going to need to care about what is "easy for the zerg", because the zerg are going to have a lot of things to worry about when the next patch hits.
If you nerf group cleanse you are effectively making battles end a lot faster and zerging a lot worse. If you are only taking into account "6v6" when balancing, expect to break a lot of things. This game was/is centered around keeps and siege, not just about "competitive 6v6" fights, whether people come to terms with that is a different story. On the other hand, if you give more healers group cleanse, then you are making siege fights last a lot longer and classes such as magus/engie worse. The 20% buff to range and damage did nothing for those two classes other than orient them more towards siege fights and being able to hit from weird angles due to how horrible terrain is on WAR.

65 ft reduction seems reasonable.
So you want to cater only the AOE spammers with your "Keep RvR" where 50% of the Careers are not even considered to be brought into the "elitist" groups? For sure not...

Cite where I specifically said any of that, if you can't do that, then do not quote me again just for the sake of posting garbage.

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Tamarlan
Posts: 209

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#102 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:25 pm

Spoiler:
I am a bit concerned that balancing through nerfs might hurt more than it helps population-wise. Unlike live, everyone knew exactly about the effectiveness of classes when they created their characters.

Players who rolled shaman didnt expect to be on par with DOK and still choose to play this class. Nerf means a lot of pissed DOK players without making shaman players more happy.

So ... buff shaman I would say ☺
This topic isn't about whether you agree with the concept of nerfing and frankly I don't care if people rolled classes here with the expectation of being (and staying) overpowered - Azarael
Halvar RP
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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#103 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:43 pm

Renork wrote:If you nerf group cleanse you are effectively making battles end a lot faster and zerging a lot worse. If you are only taking into account "6v6" when balancing, expect to break a lot of things. This game was/is centered around keeps and siege, not just about "competitive 6v6" fights, whether people come to terms with that is a different story. On the other hand, if you give more healers group cleanse, then you are making siege fights last a lot longer and classes such as magus/engie worse. The 20% buff to range and damage did nothing for those two classes other than orient them more towards siege fights and being able to hit from weird angles due to how horrible terrain is on WAR.

65 ft reduction seems reasonable.
Don't know how you got into this from my post - the reason things are going to get worse for the zerg is because of RvR implementation next patch requiring control of many areas of the map and because siege weapons are there to punish a zerg for refusing to do so. None of this has anything to do with group cleanse, and I posted my post because people were raising fears about zerg play which will be irrelevant in large scale RvR next patch.
Arbich wrote:Copying class abilities is a lazy balance move. I don´t know about shammi, but AM already has the least problems with AP/Resource-management, while WP has most of all order-healers (if you ignore ap-drains). AM (as healer) has one of the better heal-debuffs on order-side or a good silence . AM has a much better snare than WP, an at least somewhat useful knockback and some nice debuff-skills.

AM should not get a group-cleanse.
Spoiler warning: They're getting one, though not as powerful as the WP/DoK one.

WP doesn't have problems with resource management. They're practically immune to AP drains, they're spoonfed resources from their offhands, Smite and Supplication as well as optionally by tactics. Let's not pretend WP and DoK aren't OP and that AM and Shaman aren't UP, shall we?

Those lovely debuff skills you mention are masked by a vast number of effects. AMs and Shamans will tell you they don't even cast those skills. The nice resist buff they bring is also masked by one (1) of the three KotBS and Chosen lolauras that they can have active at any time, so that doesn't matter either. Heal debuff or silence? They don't seem to justify taking an AM or Shaman in groups, do they?

WP and DoK perform where it counts, which is healing and not dying.

sotora
Posts: 320

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#104 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:56 pm

@Azarael

You mentioned in one of previous post "that if nothing will be done with WP/DoK group cleanse same group cleanse will simply be added to AM/Shaman".

I would like to ask an question regarding this: do you and/or ROR team would saw that as a problem to a game balance that would need to be countered by changes in other areas?

Because imho that would be preferred solution. Simply don't change WP/DoK group cleanse and add Shaman/AM group cleanse too. I have nothing against AM/Shaman having such capability too and being more viable as healers.

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#105 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:04 pm

I expected this topic would bog (and think it is still quite bogged atm), so my strategy has changed.

AM/Shaman are getting a variant of group cleansing, and if the introduction of their variant means that there is too much cleansing in the game, then both WP/DoK and AM/Shaman will have their group cleanses nerfed.

What I think is very important is to make it clear that WP/DoK will not be allowed to monopolize the powerful cleanse effect. AM/Shaman are going to have a power cleanse, and they're going to keep that power cleanse, and we're going to adjust all of them at once if there are any problems. If that means I have to force a state in which there is too much cleansing (in order to allay fears of too much DPS) so that we can then tackle both cleanses, then that's fine, I'm used to having to do things like that.

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vouzou
Posts: 133

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#106 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:48 pm

Azarael wrote:I expected this topic would bog (and think it is still quite bogged atm), so my strategy has changed.

AM/Shaman are getting a variant of group cleansing, and if the introduction of their variant means that there is too much cleansing in the game, then both WP/DoK and AM/Shaman will have their group cleanses nerfed.

What I think is very important is to make it clear that WP/DoK will not be allowed to monopolize the powerful cleanse effect. AM/Shaman are going to have a power cleanse, and they're going to keep that power cleanse, and we're going to adjust all of them at once if there are any problems. If that means I have to force a state in which there is too much cleansing (in order to allay fears of too much DPS) so that we can then tackle both cleanses, then that's fine, I'm used to having to do things like that.

Ok then lets test it and see how it goes.Give AM/SH the same cleanse as WP/DoK has let them test it and if that won't works we are here to discuss again.
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Korthi Wp of Zerg

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Jaycub
Posts: 3130

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#107 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:39 pm

Azarael wrote:I expected this topic would bog (and think it is still quite bogged atm), so my strategy has changed.

AM/Shaman are getting a variant of group cleansing, and if the introduction of their variant means that there is too much cleansing in the game, then both WP/DoK and AM/Shaman will have their group cleanses nerfed.

What I think is very important is to make it clear that WP/DoK will not be allowed to monopolize the powerful cleanse effect. AM/Shaman are going to have a power cleanse, and they're going to keep that power cleanse, and we're going to adjust all of them at once if there are any problems. If that means I have to force a state in which there is too much cleansing (in order to allay fears of too much DPS) so that we can then tackle both cleanses, then that's fine, I'm used to having to do things like that.
Too much cleansing comes from factors other than just group cleanse.

>DoK m2
every minute you have a groupwide cleansing winds effect, 60 sec CD and it's up off CD (takes ~40 seconds to get there)

>Cleansing Winds
20 pts for a 2 minute CD cleanse everything

You see a lot the double dok groups, because with CW2, double group cleanse (that catches ailments) and double M2. You have so many anti debuff mechanics, it's just kinda insane.

If you give shaman/AM a group type cleanse, if it doesn't remove ailments it might as well not exist. I think this pretty much sums up how, if not too central certain things are to the meta (Inc heal debuffs). Aside from choppa, all incoming healdebuffs on destro are ailments except for DoK HD which is a proc so cleansing it is a waste anyways. On order all inc healdebuffs are again ailments, outgoing are curses, and no proc healdebuffs.


You also have to look at other factors that effect cleanse, and that's group makeups and how they are able to deal with cleansing. Obviously nothing can deal with CW or DoK M2, but there are ways to diminish the effects of a group cleanse via group makeup.

My guild specifically learned this when going up against double DoK groups with a 2-2-2 group that ran WL/Slayer/IB/Knight/WP/RP. There is a gigantic problem here, and that is the fact that DoK cannot cleanse curses, which WL and IB use. Meaning they tear through the all important slayer debuffs, knight AoE snare etc... This is ultimately what forced us to run SM just to have that extra cover against the almighty DoK group cleanse. We could however use the RP 15 sec DoT rune as openers every 60 seconds, but the long CD kills it as effective cover. Just an example of how cleanse can sort of change the meta comps, though IB vs SM of course runs deeper than just cleansing types.

Groups also gain advantages by having certain fluff debuffs, BO's bigbrawlin is the epitome of this ability wise, proc wise like before you have DoK HD, crippling strikes etc... Am/Shaman aoe debuffs can even find a little bit of usefulness in this by essentially being worthless debuffs, but actually fodder for cleanse.
<Lords of the Locker Room> <Old School>

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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#108 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:44 pm

Azarael wrote:You aren't going to need to care about what is "easy for the zerg", because the zerg are going to have a lot of things to worry about when the next patch hits.
The zerg in my post was unfortunate wording. A few lines up i more correctly denoted it "typically a larger force" and by context kiting maybe one could have understood I didn't imply the ZERG (in the zone)

What I ment by 'zerg' was a larger force typically a wb that we typically kite. In TS we call them zerg which ofc is different from the ZERG.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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bloodi
Suspended
Posts: 1725

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#109 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:57 pm

Jaycub wrote:You also have to look at other factors that effect cleanse, and that's group makeups and how they are able to deal with cleansing. Obviously nothing can deal with CW or DoK M2, but there are ways to diminish the effects of a group cleanse via group makeup.
The problem is that you only have to do this kind of group comps that think about what kind of debuff they use when you are against wp/dok.

The rest? Who cares, they cant even afford to cleanse most of the time. Thats also why i think giving AM/Shaman a group cleanse is a cop out, its not just group cleanse what makes them the top dog, is things like group wide hot, group wide shield, shield on crits and reduced cast time on aoe heals that lets them have free time to gcleanse on every cd because, they can afford to.

The rest of the healers dont have the tools to make space for the cleanse most of the time and if they do, its probably a dok/wp making the space for them, so double WP/dok will still be top dog and the only change we will see is that classes that are based on dots will have a harder time to perform.

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#110 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:22 pm

I knew that folding on my intent not to ever add renown active skills until the balance passes began would bite me in the behind...

As I'm sure you know, though, both AM and Shaman cleanse Ailment. Their dead types are those used by BW and Sorc.

As for bringing WP/DoK down... well, that's hard. Hard enough to be impossible with what we've got - we can't change cast times yet, there's no stomach for doing huge skill reworks anyway and we're dealing with a class that is supposed to be played in a completely different way (and I have no doubt that if it were forced to play in that way, viable or not, 95% of its users would immediately abandon it.)
Jaycub wrote:Aside from choppa, all incoming healdebuffs on destro are ailments except for DoK HD which is a proc so cleansing it is a waste anyways. On order all inc healdebuffs are again ailments, outgoing are curses, and no proc healdebuffs.
Scatter the Winds and Playing with Fire are Hex. Absence is Faith is Curse, though it's **** enough to be ignored... for now.

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