Azarael wrote:I expected this topic would bog (and think it is still quite bogged atm), so my strategy has changed.
AM/Shaman are getting a variant of group cleansing, and if the introduction of their variant means that there is too much cleansing in the game, then both WP/DoK and AM/Shaman will have their group cleanses nerfed.
What I think is very important is to make it clear that WP/DoK will not be allowed to monopolize the powerful cleanse effect. AM/Shaman are going to have a power cleanse, and they're going to keep that power cleanse, and we're going to adjust all of them at once if there are any problems. If that means I have to force a state in which there is too much cleansing (in order to allay fears of too much DPS) so that we can then tackle both cleanses, then that's fine, I'm used to having to do things like that.
Too much cleansing comes from factors other than just group cleanse.
>DoK m2
every minute you have a groupwide cleansing winds effect, 60 sec CD and it's up off CD (takes ~40 seconds to get there)
>Cleansing Winds
20 pts for a 2 minute CD cleanse everything
You see a lot the double dok groups, because with CW2, double group cleanse (that catches ailments) and double M2. You have so many anti debuff mechanics, it's just kinda insane.
If you give shaman/AM a group type cleanse, if it doesn't remove ailments it might as well not exist. I think this pretty much sums up how, if not too central certain things are to the meta (Inc heal debuffs). Aside from choppa, all incoming healdebuffs on destro are ailments except for DoK HD which is a proc so cleansing it is a waste anyways. On order all inc healdebuffs are again ailments, outgoing are curses, and no proc healdebuffs.
You also have to look at other factors that effect cleanse, and that's group makeups and how they are able to deal with cleansing. Obviously nothing can deal with CW or DoK M2, but there are ways to diminish the effects of a group cleanse via group makeup.
My guild specifically learned this when going up against double DoK groups with a 2-2-2 group that ran WL/Slayer/IB/Knight/WP/RP. There is a gigantic problem here, and that is the fact that DoK cannot cleanse curses, which WL and IB use. Meaning they tear through the all important slayer debuffs, knight AoE snare etc... This is ultimately what forced us to run SM just to have that extra cover against the almighty DoK group cleanse. We could however use the RP 15 sec DoT rune as openers every 60 seconds, but the long CD kills it as effective cover. Just an example of how cleanse can sort of change the meta comps, though IB vs SM of course runs deeper than just cleansing types.
Groups also gain advantages by having certain fluff debuffs, BO's bigbrawlin is the epitome of this ability wise, proc wise like before you have DoK HD, crippling strikes etc... Am/Shaman aoe debuffs can even find a little bit of usefulness in this by essentially being worthless debuffs, but actually fodder for cleanse.