[Implemented] Group cleansing.

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Bozzax
Posts: 1883

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#81 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:00 pm

bloodi wrote: I wouldnt be so sure about that but they surely show why your suggestion of it working with less range would solve nothing.
Well that is my point make it less efficient 61-100 feet only. I even highlighted that reducing range wouldn't change much in those vids (typical kite situations vs larger forces). It is exactly why I personally prefer "reduced range" over "increased CD" or cleansing "lesser effects" for example.
bloodi wrote: DoK/Wp can work in close range, will often be in it to Smite/Lash since its 50ft. Making group cleanse work within 60 feet wouldnt solve anything.
Yes but they can also be 100% efficient at 100 feet doesn't that strike you as odd?
will often be in it to Smite/Lash since its 50ft.
Proof please this is no way near as often as you might think unless your whole team is in retreat and you are "stationary" spamming heals to keep all up.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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bloodi
Posts: 1639

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#82 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:15 pm

The issue with wp/dok group cleanse is not that they can do it a 100ft range, is the reasons Aza pointed out in the op, none of them are solved by that solution, it doesnt matter if it strikes me as odd that they can do it from thar range, even if i think they are the only healing class that is able to go to close range and function there.

And no sorry, i dont need to prove you that Wp/doks use Smite/essence.

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Bozzax
Posts: 1883

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#83 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:48 pm

Group cleansing is one of the most efficient tactics in the game
Im suggesting something that reduces its efficiency in a controlled way.

Also when you bring "stuff" in as arguments against something you really shouldn't be to surprised if you are called upon to prove it especially as it happens so infrequently/randomly/seldom it actually doesn't affect the core of the discussion.

Tip: A good WP/DOK would never risk the team by doing this stupid move unless he happens to be there for other reasons.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Azarael
Posts: 5349

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#84 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:50 pm

The problem with what you are suggesting is that it doesn't reduce the efficiency. I agree with bloodi regarding positioning of WP/DoK because of utility of Smite/Essence Lash, and I would say that reducing the range would accomplish exactly nothing in the context of my original post. It would create no new (and importantly EXPLOITABLE) weakness. GCleanse would still cost 25 RF/SE, still be easy to use, still cleanse all the debuffs it does now, still cleanse just as many debuffs.

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Telen
Posts: 2054
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Re: Group cleansing.

Post#85 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:18 pm

Shortening range would just lead to dok/wp doing the cleanse fandango instead of the essence lash one step.
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footpatrol2
Posts: 1019

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#86 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:44 pm

Lets go 5 steps back and frame what we are talking about here. There are 3 things in this game that group cleanse, Cleansing Power tactic, Efficient Patching tactic, and Khaine's Withdrawal morale 2 for Dok. The original post seems to be written from the perspective of a WP and not a Dok. The focus seems to be on the tactic and does not include the Dok morale.

Some tactic's in this game have a inter-relationship with the opposing faction morale's. One example on how there are tactic's having a inter-relationship with the opposing faction's morale is Transfer magic tactic from the AM and You weren't using Dat m3 from the shaman. Both are AE ap drains but conducted differently. The tactic version has a less effect but can be used constantly and the morale version has a more dramatic affect but is tied to a 1 minute cooldown. The morale version also are usually tied to a class that could morale pump to gain faster access then normal. There are tons more examples with specific tactic's and specific morale's having a inter-relationship. Meaning, they are tied to each other as far as faction to faction balance is concerned. I am skipping more tactic/morale relationships in a effort to keep this short.

Cleansing Power tactic and Khaine's Withdrawal morale have this tactic to morale relationship. Some of the original balance was set up like this. Mythic screwed up a lot of the balance in the beginning of this game. They also screwed up a lot of the changes. I think mythic made a mistake of giving the Dok a tactic to cleanse because they already had a Khaine's Withdrawal morale 2.

Sidenote: If you know your history Dok's had a single target morale pump in this game at one time. The Dok could have rapidly pumped up his morale to gain earlier then normal access to their morale 2, Khaine's Withdrawal, in the fight.

Efficient patching tactic did not exist originally. It replaced a tactic called persistent rending.

Group cleanse quick description of the ingame at the moment differencse and similarities
Spoiler:
Cleansing power tactic has never really been changed from the original design. Its design was to be able to cleanse without having to target anything. It only cleanses one debuff per use and is limited to what it is able to cleanse. It has a 5 sec cooldown.

Efficient patching tactic doesn't work exactly like the WP Cleansing Power tactic. The Dok is required to find a debuff in his group to cleanse before it is able to activate the group cleanse. It is wonky because it was a fix and not part of the original design. It only cleanses one debuff per use and is limited to what it is able to cleanse. It has a 5 sec cooldown.

Khaine's Withdrawal morale has never really been changed from the original design. Its design was able to cleanse without having to target anything. It cleanses everything and wipes clean all/multiple debuffs from the group but is tied to morale and has a 1 minute cooldown before it can be used again.
Questions?
Is Efficient patching tactic up for discussion to be removed in this thread? I think this tactic creates imbalances and was a lazy fix by mythic. I could go into more detail but trying to keep it short.

If Efficient patching tactic is to stay, should it be directly mirrored with the Cleansing power tactic? Or should Efficient patching tactic be worse because Dok's have access to Khaine's Withdrawal morale 2?

Is Khaine's Withdrawal changes up for discussion in this thread?
It is a Group Cleanse and it is the best group cleanse in this game. It is tied to morale with a 1 minute cooldown, so it should be the best group cleanse. I think it would be a mistake if we ignored what Dok's have access too, and should be part of the discussion. Since Khaine's Withdrawal is morale this brings in morale's into the discussion and potentially morale gain rates.

Should the faction to faction balance of the group cleanse effect available in this game be discussed before changes are made specifically to the group cleanse tactics? I think so. I think we should try to handle the situation all in one swoop as opposed to trying to isolate and tweak. I think it would be better to look at the overall situation available to group cleanse effect then just focusing on tactic's. I think the questions I raised above should be discussed along with changes made to group cleanse effect.

I personally favor rollback's with tweaking so they don't cause the issue's on which they were discarded. Specific rollbacks will sync up with other elements this game provides which may currently seem broken but weren't at one time.

anarchypark
Posts: 750

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#87 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:01 am

Dps have initiative against healing.
average healers don't have time to think tactical cleans in flood of dot/debuff
and it's hard to find right one w/o addon

aoe is easy to use
and can be spread to several grps.
between easy aoe and easy cleans it'll eventually find loopholes.

I think 1b solution is brilliant.
and give other healers grp cleans too.
healers are already suffocating in hostile world
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Tholkienn
Posts: 223

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#88 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:29 am

If you give to all healer the group cleanse, dok will alwayz have an advantage, with is morale 2.

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Bozzax
Posts: 1883

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#89 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:54 am

Azarael wrote:The problem with what you are suggesting is that it doesn't reduce the efficiency. I agree with bloodi regarding positioning of WP/DoK because of utility of Smite/Essence Lash, and I would say that reducing the range would accomplish exactly nothing in the context of my original post. It would create no new (and importantly EXPLOITABLE) weakness. GCleanse would still cost 25 RF/SE, still be easy to use, still cleanse all the debuffs it does now, still cleanse just as many debuffs.
Simply shrink range then until it does reduce the efficiency efficiently

60, 50, 45 ... 30?

It would be easy to fine tune range to a "sweet spot" so DOKs and WPs can Cha Cha, Waltz, and Mambo without breaking the game ;)
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Toldavf
Posts: 1569

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#90 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:07 pm

I think range reduction is the wrong answer at this point. Grouped cleanse is at its most useful when you are kiting and generally a group that is kiting will stick pretty tightly together.

Also the ranges you are suggesting are ridiculously small the idea here is to balance a strong tactic not nerf it to the point of being useless. Nobody is going to spec a 30 foot aoe cleanse.
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