[Implemented] Group cleansing.

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.

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Bozzax
Posts: 1883

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#91 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:40 pm

group cleanse "solutions" from OP:
"No group cleans on self"
"Cleanse group only (not self) or self"
"Cleanse Only AOE effects"
"Cleanse effects lesser typing"
"No specs with AOE detaunt + group cleanse"
"Longer CD on group cleanse"
(or most at least)

Possibly combined with:
"All healers get group cleanse"

I suggested:
"Reduced range on group cleanse 60 feet" - but it isn't considered a big enough nerf to efficiency
Grouped cleanse is at its most useful when you are kiting
(typically a larger force)
This is the exact reason why I suggested "reduced range 60 feet" as an alt. solution. I don't want to see this change making it easier for the zerg.

Agree 30feet would be a disaster and we aren't likely to see "reduced range" as a solution anyway.

/end
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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anarchypark
Posts: 756

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#92 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:54 pm

about the LoS, easy use issues..
if gcleans work like Martyr's Blessing/Khaine's Refreshment ?
it's 30 feet cleans bomb and exact counter of 1 AoE
few targets might be missed by range difference
he can certainly clean himself but have to sacrifice moving time and risk himself in danger
to clean others.
no more backline easy cleans
risks are too high? he can cleans other grp members!
if heal spec WP abandon gcleans for backline heal position, give it to grace spec
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Azarael
Posts: 5349

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#93 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:04 pm

You aren't going to need to care about what is "easy for the zerg", because the zerg are going to have a lot of things to worry about when the next patch hits.

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Renork
Posts: 1212

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#94 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:20 pm

Azarael wrote:You aren't going to need to care about what is "easy for the zerg", because the zerg are going to have a lot of things to worry about when the next patch hits.
If you nerf group cleanse you are effectively making battles end a lot faster and zerging a lot worse. If you are only taking into account "6v6" when balancing, expect to break a lot of things. This game was/is centered around keeps and siege, not just about "competitive 6v6" fights, whether people come to terms with that is a different story. On the other hand, if you give more healers group cleanse, then you are making siege fights last a lot longer and classes such as magus/engie worse. The 20% buff to range and damage did nothing for those two classes other than orient them more towards siege fights and being able to hit from weird angles due to how horrible terrain is on WAR.

65 ft reduction seems reasonable.

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vouzou
Posts: 113

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#95 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:23 pm

First of all i whould like to say that i am playing both a WP and a DoK, so i can tell for both classes pros and cons.
To be honets there isn't any real ballance between WP and DoK, they are 2 healing classes that have mostly aoe heals and hots, they both have acces to g-cleansing abilities but they suck on ST healing. They use the same mechanic for healing, and that means that they benefit mostly on Soul essence- Righteous fury for group effects and on Action points for ST effects.
They both have access to g-cleanse ability gained via tactic. But for those classes to be effective as they are now they have to pay the cost.
First of all the mechanic regeneration is to slow and that means that they must be in short range of the front line in order to benefit from their Aoe mechanic regenaration, or staying back lines while using supplication or blood offering, which also means lesser healing time while trying to replenish your carrer mechanic to heal again.
In general they are different from the other healers while having access to limited healing abilities that thank god are aoe ones. If you want to compare WP/DoK g cleanse ability to the other healers and how that affects the hole game then you have to compare the single target healing and buffing abilities of WP/DoK with the other healing classes too and all their abilities in general.
I do not see the reason for example for a WP/DoK to have 5 secs cooldown to their only viable ST healing ability while other healers don't have and we need to talk about a g-cleanse nerf. I do not see the reason of RP/Zeal having better and more aoe HoT abilities and still talking about WP/DoK g-cleanse. I don't see the reason of nerfing g cleanse in order to give WP/DoK players the opportunity to run different specs than the most of us run today, especially with the current state of the game. If you want to nerf g-cleanse then you have to make debbufs unstacable. No more 2x same heal debuffs or same engi magus dots on the each target. There should be only 1 debuff the stronger one an now one can apply anothr one until it is gone. Then you may remove completely g cleanse from game.
And btw as a DoK you can't g cleanse if you don't have a target that's having a debuff even if that target is yourself compared to WP g cleanse.
So if you are thinking of nerfing g cleanse at the current state of the game you need to think twice casue you are nerfing the balance of the game more instead of fixing it.

Thanks


Korthian DoK of Phalanx
Ariandi Wp of PhalanxII
Korthian Dok of Phalanx
Girkim Shaman of Phalanx

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Qwack
Posts: 118

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#96 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:03 pm

Azarael wrote:If nothing is done with WP/DoK group cleanse, an AoE cleansing effect or other cleanse improvement will be added to AM/Shaman. Advance warning.

I will not allow a state to continue in which one class has an effect considered a crutch of the game's balance.
I advocate this idea because the one thing I have heard for years and years is that Shammy/AM can't group cleanse and thats why we just don't desire that class (and its true, and I agree with it). Now Shammys still cant cleanse the almighty Hex which is where the big damage comes from, but hey its still better than 1 by 1 pitiful cleansing and being considered a 3rd rate healing class. This, above all other changes or buffs, would be the one thing that finally slots Shammys/AM in a group as a healer, somewhat on par with the other healing classes.


For group cleansing as a whole for all classes, I recommended increasing the AP cost (even some weak single target heals cost 55) and reasonably increasing the cool down on it.

I don't recommend outright nerfing Group Cleanse on any class because there are already ways to stifle it by way of spamming lingering AE abilities to precede and cover your following damage rotation. Most players don't think to do that, but it works very well.
Last edited by Qwack on Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BrockRiefenstahl
Posts: 409

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#97 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:22 pm

Renork wrote:
Azarael wrote:You aren't going to need to care about what is "easy for the zerg", because the zerg are going to have a lot of things to worry about when the next patch hits.
If you nerf group cleanse you are effectively making battles end a lot faster and zerging a lot worse. If you are only taking into account "6v6" when balancing, expect to break a lot of things. This game was/is centered around keeps and siege, not just about "competitive 6v6" fights, whether people come to terms with that is a different story. On the other hand, if you give more healers group cleanse, then you are making siege fights last a lot longer and classes such as magus/engie worse. The 20% buff to range and damage did nothing for those two classes other than orient them more towards siege fights and being able to hit from weird angles due to how horrible terrain is on WAR.

65 ft reduction seems reasonable.
So you want to cater only the AOE spammers with your "Keep RvR" where 50% of the Careers are not even considered to be brought into the "elitist" groups? For sure not...

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Arbich
Posts: 399

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#98 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:25 pm

Copying class abilities is a lazy balance move. I don´t know about shammi, but AM already has the least problems with AP/Resource-management, while WP has most of all order-healers (if you ignore ap-drains). AM (as healer) has one of the better heal-debuffs on order-side or a good silence . AM has a much better snare than WP, an at least somewhat useful knockback and some nice debuff-skills.

AM should not get a group-cleanse.
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Qwack
Posts: 118

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#99 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:30 pm

Tholkienn wrote:If you give to all healer the group cleanse, dok will alwayz have an advantage, with is morale 2.
I am still fine with that. Trying cleansing 1 by 1 by 1 by.... ad nauseum.
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sotora
Posts: 320

Re: Group cleansing.

Post#100 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:00 pm

Spoiler:
I would actually ask the question:

Why 1 class of tank per faction and 1 class of healer per faction is easier (meaning requiring lower skill level to play at minimally acceptable and/or average level) to play than others? *

Is this purely an accident or was this made on purpose by Warhammer Online developers?


Remember that one of main problem of trinity MMORPG games is most titles is lack of tanks & healers and overabdunance of dps. Most mainstream trinity MMORPG titles have been struggling with that problem.

So when looking at ROR changes in last months and proposed changes (at least those proposals I saw - not only this topic) I am concerned it will backfire. Just my 2 cents of observation.

* off-topic - same question can be asked about why there are classes that clearly require signicifantly higher skill level than most classes? and it's usually true in all games with classes.
This forum is about balance, not theories about how the original developers calibrated the skillcap of their classes - especially as MMOs in general have low individual skill / execution requirements - Azarael
Last edited by sotora on Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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