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[Gear] State Stabilization

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.
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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: [Pending Final Review] State stabilization.

Post#201 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:25 pm

Noiree wrote:May I offer a completely different approach? Partially vertical, almost no variables to twitch around and might solve the bolstering problem, too.
Haven't mentioned the idea as it wasn't wished for in this thread. But if you like to hear, I'll write it down. If not, just delete my post.
Go ahead.

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Hastykrasty
Posts: 115

Re: [Pending Final Review] State stabilization.

Post#202 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:34 pm

@Azarael
There's a saying: "You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust the sails"
You can't make a perfect balanced game, but you can limit the imbalance.
So, go and try what you think you must do.
Suffer Not The Eretic To Live

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Noiree
Posts: 369

Re: [Pending Final Review] State stabilization.

Post#203 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:48 pm

Right now we got stats for each career + gear + renown abilities + talismans + tactics. How about we remove gear completely from this list? Every career gets a basic set of stats, a template, so everyone on T4 will have the same basic stats and values (discussions and whine inc).
To make vertical progression more interesting, you could reinsert gear, but completely ignore the stats and armor on it. Make it count only for pve. As soon as someone is rvr flagged, his stats change to the template. The template wouldn't change with the gear, but on the gear could be interesting procs that scale with the amount of parts you collected. Like e.g. 2% chance per piece of annihilator to get your cast times reduced or a speed proc when hit or whatever you can come up with. Nothing too OP.
To not completely ruin the talisman market and have some form of specialization possible, you could let the talismans count but cut their power by at least 50% otherwise you'll get a massive imbalance.
The renown abilities are a different problem but actually I'm all for people who have a higher RR, should also have a bit of an edge. With this system, some might be tempted to spec into stats and leave the defensive skills out, so you get the "squishy when powerful".

Advantage of this is that it scales easily up and down. A class is too weak? Just adjust the template. The problem with bolstering would be nonexisting anymore because you don't have to do strange calculations - gear doesn't matter much anyway. Edges are granted by RR skills, talismans and procs not gear in general.

Though, I don't know of course how much of this is actually possible right now.

Career balancing is a different story. Tactics etc would suddenly matter much more.
Noiree - Archmage
Annnoying - Disciple of Wayne

gone with the wipe - RIP:
Annoying Lilpieceofsh - Disciple of Khaine, Bikinibabe Withoutbeach - Sorceress, Kekshirn Derkruemlige - Shaman

DonCarlos
Posts: 37

Re: [Pending Final Review] State stabilization.

Post#204 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:55 pm

What takes life interessting and fresh?
Is it a static balance?
No, it is the Dynamic, the constant change, the UPs and Downs...

There "should" be a buf/nerf cycle - even wipes should be considered.

Another idea:
Why not think of a campaign that goes for let's say 3-6 months, and then everything gets wiped - like the seasons in Diablo.
And the campaign winner (the whole realm or the most "valueable" members) gets a trophy or a title or something like that.

As a sidenote:
I am not playing for gear or rr progression - I am playing RoR because I love the Warhammer world and I love playing with the Bitterstone Dwarves...

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Eathisword
Posts: 808

Re: [Pending Final Review] State stabilization.

Post#205 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:04 pm

^^ I like Noiree's idea.

But i wanna add up on the idea that gear progression is necessary to keep the players invested. I think it is partially true, in the sense that some kind of emulation factor is needed.

I disagree completely that this motivation must be in the form of a power increase. A new set of gear could have the exact same stats number, but distributed differently, with different bonus and people would go get it.

It could have a cooler appearance : people would go get it (like the purple enchant in WoW that require 2200 rating). They give no advantage, but when you have em, there is a pride in it.

It could be token : kill 1000 RR60+ player and get a special mount. Then kill 1000 RR70+ players and get XXX, and so on. So people know what they have achieved.

Emulation is what keeps people playing, not gear progression per say, which is just one side of a multi-faced dice.

Bring back the RvR statue champions in capital cities, create ladder, create PvP events and so on. you will get player's investment just as much as putting out new gear set with better stats.

Your premisse that new gear is needed might hold true for a brand new mmo. But 90% of the people leave anyway. On a server like RoR, where a lot of people have been playing in Anni for 7-8 months, played T2-T3 for 1.5 years, I don't think it holds true at all. We love the game : if it keep getting better, more stable, more balanced, more interesting in RvR, in scenario... w'll keep playing, gear or no gear.
Farfadet, RR72 shaman
Volgograd, RR80 IB
Video thread here.

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Noiree
Posts: 369

Re: [Pending Final Review] State stabilization.

Post#206 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:14 pm

Gear progression could be made more interesting by either more talisman slots (meh... rather not), more interesting procs or better chances for them.
Noiree - Archmage
Annnoying - Disciple of Wayne

gone with the wipe - RIP:
Annoying Lilpieceofsh - Disciple of Khaine, Bikinibabe Withoutbeach - Sorceress, Kekshirn Derkruemlige - Shaman

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zumos2
Posts: 431

Re: [Pending Final Review] State stabilization.

Post#207 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:19 pm

I think both Noiree and Volgograd's ideas have potential. I do think players need a bit more ways to "min max" than in the version of Noiree, but I do believe there are ways of doing so without strong vertical progression (for example, have different types of sets that alter your base stats in different ways) Also I don't necessarily think it is needed to cut talisman's power (maybe they would need some rebalance though). I agree with Volgograd that tokens and special rewards would be very nice to have. Also it is true that most of the RoR players have stuck with the game for a long while without any gear progression at all. New content, new challenges and new rewards will only make us more happy and attract more people.
Zumos - Member of Red Guard

Current Guilds: The Unlikely Plan - Deep and Dry - Dark Omen

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: [Pending Final Review] State stabilization.

Post#208 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:26 pm

@as glorian said+ the efforts to put the game in a better shape have payed well, my feeling of the game is that is better balanced than it was on live.
You do not actually need a infinite vertical progression ....nor an indefinite horizontal progression. What make progression interesting is reach 1 point high enough where you feel powerfull enough, it's all about the feeling you have about your toons; in the case of a tank it could mean being enough tank but also relevant into a fight : be able to whistand tons of dmg but be able to influence the fight. Or could be, be tanky enough but trade support for dmg.

PPL wanna reach that point in vertical progression and then be able to handle it and personalize what thay are able to do ( and keep being relevant )--> this is why personalization as gw2 failed you felt not relevant at all in what you wanted to do.
War does not have this problem, war have a simple classes balance problem just like all other mmorpg have, just because war was never balanced you should not drop halfway.
Warhammer real problems is that what drive ppl to play is fun, and the reason why i wrote this text wall. War is fun as base and luckluster later on (it was not meant to be super competitive tough it have some competitive elements). This is due balance in first place because being wrek by Op stuff is the first thing which make the game unfun (which is the problem you are so focus to solve first which is good) the second is the fun in stric sense. While i actually think that war combat is fun there are a series of problem which drop the ppl motivation. I hearded more than once player feel frustrated by the class they played or by some classes ability


-old chosen/kobs 9 sec stag are some clear exemple of feeling outplayed by a not conterable ability, also the feeling of being not be able to put up coutner measure because the game is actually based on DONT LET your enemy play. This is exatly the problem in the game which frustrate ppl the most and make them leave....;
Spoiler:
there are a lot of way to have a competitive game but when the results is kill ppl so fast to not let em react then the game have a problem, force ppl to act first than in dangerous situation put a very high stress on the fun component. You can have both precautions and countermeasures but when the coutnermeasure are too few then you need to introduces very heavy coutnermeasure like RD, speed proc , healer M2 focussed mind to coutner most of cc on healers etc
War is basically this... kill ppl fast, from the view point you look at it, the ttk is both too high or too low depending from the situation. The god if a hate staff speed proc and QE they are very heavy counter and heavy solution to stupid, very stupid stuff in game such snare omnipresence (nerf snare instad no eh?).
That's why you need to keep balance the combat but also increase the fun ; fun which is not handle by the combat system but with game interatiom (worthless said that the difference in 10 renown point which allow some classes to get more benfith from renown such renown skill is felt like not fun...some classes /or classes in some build need more stats from renown and have less point ready to be spent for being able to renow skill so this increase even more the power creep between classes and internaly of some renown skill
i could also pass by other common warhammer problem

1) population in lower tier
-de-bolster is a great weapon for this , force ppl with a campaign system and you will have all tier full (actually do not hit heavy higer level you force them there so give them the same tols as other

2)lack of appereance stuff
-look only tzeench stuff in game .....yo noticed that all f2p game put SO many ( not joking) silly appereance costumes and such but p2p not? a lot could be done in this regard (dana started a thread about this which felt like a good way to handle this issue)

3)lack of incentive to guild
no real incetive to guild or be a guild which do x type of game you can take 24 random ppl; provide they good enough and have ts they will have the same results of 24 guildy; this is wrong, the effort to build a guild should be rewarded as it stand the chance to fail as guild and also being mistrust due being bad or not good enough or being a xrealmers etc
Also guild banner and other guild related advantage

4) monotony, nothing kill a game more than monotony
-vertical progression/and meta shift in class balances are the not so good working panacea which game dev over time used to refresh every ip.

Why instead i cannot have a skull system rewamped instead which bring out a greater deamon or a sun dragon? etc....introducing feature which kill the monotony are the better tools to actually keep ppl interested. If i can have 24 ppl all night logged and do great fights and have epic moment to remember, laught at etc then you can bet you're ass i will play it.
This is in fact quite simple, why do you think the pve lost over the years to the pvp-->monotony and same situation which repeat itself again again and again, pvp won over pve due to this. Vertical progression and meta shift are exatly the pve vs the pvp argument.
Pvp won in variety, but then what you do when a game pvp itself became monotony?
This totally exit from the concept of competitive game , because competitive play is 1 of things that can fit into the words great moments. Hence play the game yourself see what is not fun and try to solve that, introduces more element which make the game fun for more kind of ppl (as was done for pug queue). Nothing need to be earn easily but at least make it fun and things less monotony(pug queue made sc less monotony. You held from t1 some good events which should have show that ppl happily partecipate into events due their breaking of the monotony which : best spec, best class, x type of pvp dictate to them.
The focus of the problem so for me is wrong, to "hold players" you need fun.......gear progression is 1 component/problem which influence the fun.

Aza words are a real shame :( 1) because we feel like the main lead is loosing the motivation to fix the game and
2)maybe because this is also due other reason like we are the cause and we should had been better in help devs (me, and every other one).

3)
Spoiler:
Azarael wrote: Unfortunately, I do not feel as if we have any choice but to follow the same path, and thus I judge attempting to balance this project pointless. I am not willing to expend effort into supporting a balance process that will be deliberately disrupted, and in fact must be, in order for the game to hold its players.
this show a problem in dev-player and viceversa feedback instead.....why this point? me and other pointed out some alternative to both plain simple vertical and horizontal progression... we told you something on which you could work on instead keep repeat the error of the vertical progression , and as such i belive that as me other still dosen't understand, like this quote, some moves from the team; this is another factor which make ppl leave, and not the need of the vertical progressio to hold player (as such each new sets introduction bring new ppl then they leave after 2 month) . This make then also the dev team frustarted itself....it's k push your own change but maybe a 1 week note when changes as big as dok/wp are going to happen so that ppl can pre-point out if stuff that feel odd (with out actually force you to block the changes, just something that actually got missed). Maybe that would allow everyone to not feel disappointed with benefith for all. Some times it feel like there is no interest in get feedback like (that quote) because even due getting warning ppl like me talked about progression which aza then is refering now but then the anwser which aza came out with is disappoiting..... he need to stick to vertical progression ...(why give use warning then in the first place if this was the argument and why seems all those warned post got ignored.....regard do not actually stick to vertical progression)

There are many problems in the game but for sure is not that ppl attention will drop if the game is not perfectly balanced and the vertical progression stop, the game died due the mentioned problems (with players unhearded feedback being one of those in fact and it seems with the great exeption of the balance forum seems it repeat a bit sometimes), but in reality those were not problem, they were the conseguences of the game being left alone with no real direction (which was the problem). The multiple problems we have in game need to be simply-> solved....... you can solve the problem by litteraly fix the issue you see, the less problem you have (which considering the alpha state are a lot we know) the more the game will be fun, solution must be fun
The "problem" of the vertical progression and gear gap balance is not a real problem--> is a choice....you can choice to allow an infinite vertical progression as you stated but again there is a feedback problem then, most of ppl said you that we are good with fix the progression till sov and finish it there, we need a bit of vertical progression because we feel is right but some also said that we dont want an infinite gear progression because it's " dumb"/ as much no one said he want totally horizontal progression like a moba...
Choice matter "right/ok" but is not the end of the world either choice you take; as long you KEEP give RoR attention and strife to make it better the game will not die and ppl will not loose interest.....(still feedback problem tough we said we dont want a a infinite vertical progression)
Also you (as dev team i mean now) would handicap yourself again with that choice for feedback reason just like the statement that there would had not been anymore 3 set choices after anni set tier(which ppl instead were happy about you know, we were happy for a stuff "you" as team pushed and we wanted more so why you actualyl handicap yourself like this?).
Also if the gear is not balanced you can then nerf the gear..... class balance as most of time @ten say should be not related to gear , if gear creae a power creep balance the gear itself; classes should be balanced x se as in fact we are doing in balance forum.
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knick
Posts: 206

Re: [Pending Final Review] State stabilization.

Post#209 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:31 pm

Eathisword wrote:^^ I like Noiree's idea.

But i wanna add up on the idea that gear progression is necessary to keep the players invested. I think it is partially true, in the sense that some kind of emulation factor is needed.

....
I absolutely agree with you Eathisword
In my opinion the best way to keep players interested in the game is to give something to hunt and collect but not necessarily improves your stats. People like to tho show there successes with nice looking armor or the old rr100 glowing weapons.
I also remember that guild banners in front of guild hall showing the guilds with the most success in the last week. It was a huge motivation for some guilds to fight for a place in the top ranking
[Kraehenfeld] Knick WL RR85+

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Nycta
Posts: 95

Re: [Pending Final Review] State stabilization.

Post#210 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:43 pm

Situation is, a game and people approaching it, altering it and themselves simultaneously.

Fundamentally, a game's rules do not alter in it's duration. In our case the game runs ceaselessly, therefore any changes made in search of other viable, yet more enjoyable, game states, presents an issue to be overcome by the players if the quest is to continue, furthermore be viable, and of course fun -otherwise meh, **** it-, for the ones that actively participate in it.

Having taken the concept of "rules" to a more complex state, players come to get in terms and make their way around pouncing elves with enormous axes or mutated perverts pulling them towards their death and dishonor. Consequently, any changes made create a different reality which in turn requires more time and effort to adjust to and overcome, and above all, will to do so, as the game becomes more of a job rather than recreation.

A game also has a beginning and an ending. In our case, progress in stats - be it from gear or rank - and appearance, distributed via a system of effort and reward, where intelligence, skill as well as luck are factors, creates the space necessary for the players to experience the gaps that they will create among them, given time, until most get their BiS shinnies. Then new players, alts, lower tier adventures, pve and a multitude of other ways around boredom, with the swamp inevitably rising daily, will be all that is left before each of us decides that it is the end of the road and move on. The end comes with the exhaustion of interest.

If interest towards this game, as well as joy, can only be replenished by new content for most of the players involved then this project becomes limited. Even worse, limited disproportionately to other games of its kind, due to its position within the current legal state concerning copyright. Let us not forget though, that alike most, if not all, mmorpgs, WAR was created as an enterprise, a business and profit's necessities are part of it's very "nature"(pun intended!). The way I see it, the aforementioned quest for new, balanced, enjoyable and refreshing states of Waaaghin' is a spring of interest with even greater value for us exactly because content is limited and the addition of more tremendously hindered, if not impossible. The will of the players towards new content, which was sparkled, recreated and perpetuated as an experience of progress by the company and the game itself can be redirected towards what we will, sooner or later, be left with, namely changes in the classes and the pvp system - it is new content as well, just not viewed as such yet, though most of us here never came to experience it either until RoR so it is to be anticipated to a degree.

To the problem at hand and our current situation, I 'd say we go wild with it and define the term "Alpha phase" in a way to remain unsurpassed for centuries to come! Then, having experienced the nightmare of attempting to balance classes and find a working and fun rvr system among all the moaning and whining of the martyr's of Martyr's square, shut the whole thing down, with a "two weeks" announcement, burn the server's hard drives in a cleansing ritual and go Beta! :D

p.s: Feel free to ignore the last paragraph!
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Nycta - "Not again!.."
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