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[Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.

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Grunbag
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Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#211 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:57 pm

That is too restrictive for rifleman and grenadier .
For Gunturret : having heal party only non stackable would force snipers to join group for having a heal utility , wb leader would also prefer put rifleman on rdps party for havING the most target on rifleman heal)
For bombardment : I was hesitating to heal party only but stackable (grenadier takes more risk tHan rifleman since he has lower range but gives him possibility to focus his keg heal on his own group) or heal 9 target our of party non stackable (as grenadier has mobility now he can move to zones that are nt healed by rifleman and tinkerer, making his mobility gameplay more interresting)
Tinkerer won't change from how keg is from now , and if engineer doesn't summon any turret (scarifying his range/mobility/damage buff) he would be able to use keg as intended Imo.
Last edited by Grunbag on Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#212 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:03 am

[quote="Grunbag"]That is too restrictive for rifleman and grenadier .
For Gunturret : having heal party only non stackable would force snipers to join group for having a heal utility , wb leader would also prefer put rifleman on rdps party for havING the most target on rifleman heal)

What a ranged dps would force to join a group to to have heal utility..... ?? that ... i mean .... u are joking right ?
or that a wb leader put ranged dps in a ranged dps grp ,,,, thats no that cant be ...


Thats how dat game should work ?? mayb ??
i rly dont understand something here .... mayb its the language
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Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#213 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:10 am

Daknallbomb wrote:
Grunbag wrote:That is too restrictive for rifleman and grenadier .
For Gunturret : having heal party only non stackable would force snipers to join group for having a heal utility , wb leader would also prefer put rifleman on rdps party for havING the most target on rifleman heal)

What a ranged dps would force to join a group to to have heal utility..... ?? that ... i mean .... u are joking right ?
or that a wb leader put ranged dps in a ranged dps grp ,,,, thats no that cant be ...


Thats how dat game should work ?? mayb ??
i rly dont understand something here .... mayb its the language
I mean if you gives self heal only to rifleman you'll only confort solo player to not join group/wb , if their keg heal a party it'd be more useful for them to join a group . I said a group of rdps because if the Rifleman keg only heal party within 30feet range it would be useless to have only mdps/meleehealer/tank with him that would stand out of his keg range . If rifleman is in a group with bw/sw/am/rp he would have more ppl to heal.
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faiden
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Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#214 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:17 am

Spoiler:
Grunbag wrote:That is too restrictive for rifleman and grenadier .
For Gunturret : having heal party only non stackable would force snipers to join group for having a heal utility , wb leader would also prefer put rifleman on rdps party for havING the most target on rifleman heal)
For bombardment : I was hesitating to heal party only but stackable (grenadier takes me risk tHan rifleman since he has lower range) or heal 9 target our of party non stackable (as grenadier has mobility now he can move to zones that are nt healed by rifleman and tinkerer, making his mobility gameplay more interresting)
Tinkerer won't change from how keg is from now , and if engineer doesn't summon any turret (scarifying his range/mobility/damage buff) he would be able to use keg as intended Imo.

Édit : if you allow turret buff to affect keg , you'd have faster heal tick with bombardment turret and AoE cap/radius increase with bombardment /flameturret making keg more powerfull ?
How about we only do the range and focus on what the turrets are used for?

1)Keg + Gunturret : Single target DPS gets single target heal with Long range (maby even longer lasting effect, to save AP for PEW PEW) (non stackable, targetable, longer range/duration with turret stacks)

2)Keg + bombardment turret : AoE dot semi support // Party heal with semi long range (longer duration/range per stack but less than sniper) (non stackable, targetable)

3)Keg + flameturret : Support//tank Heal 9 players at max stacks (not party only) (Stackable,targetable, shorter range per stack, no duration increase).

Keg only: Normal range not stackable, targetable.
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Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#215 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:31 am

faiden wrote:
Spoiler:
Grunbag wrote:That is too restrictive for rifleman and grenadier .
For Gunturret : having heal party only non stackable would force snipers to join group for having a heal utility , wb leader would also prefer put rifleman on rdps party for havING the most target on rifleman heal)
For bombardment : I was hesitating to heal party only but stackable (grenadier takes me risk tHan rifleman since he has lower range) or heal 9 target our of party non stackable (as grenadier has mobility now he can move to zones that are nt healed by rifleman and tinkerer, making his mobility gameplay more interresting)
Tinkerer won't change from how keg is from now , and if engineer doesn't summon any turret (scarifying his range/mobility/damage buff) he would be able to use keg as intended Imo.

Édit : if you allow turret buff to affect keg , you'd have faster heal tick with bombardment turret and AoE cap/radius increase with bombardment /flameturret making keg more powerfull ?
How about we only do the range and focus on what the turrets are used for?

1)Keg + Gunturret : Single target DPS gets single target heal with Long range (maby even longer lasting effect, to save AP for PEW PEW) (non stackable, targetable, longer range/duration with turret stacks)

2)Keg + bombardment turret : AoE dot semi support // Party heal with semi long range (longer duration/range per stack but less than sniper) (non stackable, targetable)

3)Keg + flameturret : Support//tank Heal 9 players at max stacks (not party only) (Stackable,targetable, shorter range per stack, no duration increase).

Keg only: Normal range not stackable, targetable.
Keg as no range it only has aoe radius /cap. Rifleman doesn't increase radius . Your whole proposal is wrong.
I'm against the targetable thing : keg as a 2 sec cast time it has counterpart : cast time increase by magus tactic and interupt.
I think we should make group gameplay more attractive than pug so self heal is a bad idea for rifleman .
You can't follow turret buff cause as I said bombardment and flame increase aoe radius /cap and tick interval so it'd make keg way more powerfull (but I'd agree to make it more powerfull eheh !)
I think my proposal limit already a Lot some keg use , it serves the groups (grenadiers would be able dedicate their keg to their group that's why I think make keg limited to party but stackable with bombardment turret would be better) so each path would use keg differentry (smarter use imo)
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faiden
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Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#216 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:55 am

Spoiler:
Grunbag wrote:
faiden wrote:
Grunbag wrote:That is too restrictive for rifleman and grenadier .
For Gunturret : having heal party only non stackable would force snipers to join group for having a heal utility , wb leader would also prefer put rifleman on rdps party for havING the most target on rifleman heal)
For bombardment : I was hesitating to heal party only but stackable (grenadier takes me risk tHan rifleman since he has lower range) or heal 9 target our of party non stackable (as grenadier has mobility now he can move to zones that are nt healed by rifleman and tinkerer, making his mobility gameplay more interresting)
Tinkerer won't change from how keg is from now , and if engineer doesn't summon any turret (scarifying his range/mobility/damage buff) he would be able to use keg as intended Imo.

Édit : if you allow turret buff to affect keg , you'd have faster heal tick with bombardment turret and AoE cap/radius increase with bombardment /flameturret making keg more powerfull ?
How about we only do the range and focus on what the turrets are used for?

1)Keg + Gunturret : Single target DPS gets single target heal with Long range (maby even longer lasting effect, to save AP for PEW PEW) (non stackable, targetable, longer range/duration with turret stacks)

2)Keg + bombardment turret : AoE dot semi support // Party heal with semi long range (longer duration/range per stack but less than sniper) (non stackable, targetable)

3)Keg + flameturret : Support//tank Heal 9 players at max stacks (not party only) (Stackable,targetable, shorter range per stack, no duration increase).

Keg only: Normal range not stackable, targetable.
Keg as no range it only has aoe radius /cap. Rifleman doesn't increase radius . Your whole proposal is wrong.
I'm against the targetable thing : keg as a 2 sec cast time it has counterpart : cast time increase by magus tactic and interupt.
I think we should make group gameplay more attractive than pug so self heal is a bad idea for rifleman .
You can't follow turret buff cause as I said bombardment and flame increase aoe radius /cap and tick interval so it'd make keg way more powerfull (but I'd agree to make it more powerfull eheh !)
I think my proposal limit already a Lot some keg use , it serves the groups (grenadiers would be able dedicate their keg to their group that's why I think make keg limited to party but stackable with bombardment turret would be better) so each path would use keg differentry (smarter use imo)
What I mean with the range and I thought was obvious was the radius is getting the increase..

Sniper turret is a single target DPS with no group utility play and is a selfish play-style and should also get a selfish keg for it. Just give them the duration on how often they need to recast the keg but the radius is low as they are mostly stationary. But if the keg does not need to placed down to often they get more AP to focus on damage.

Bombardment turret play-style has a more AoE play-style and needs to move around more hence the Radius increase and gets the party heal because of the whole AoE style. I would add a lower than sniper duration increase thou.

Flame turret is pure support and tank style: Hence they get the out of party heal and stackable. Because that's basically their job to stay still and buff//debuff players.

The keg should fit the turret. and ofc be targetable just like magus removable HP buff

Magus could go something like:

Sniper pet: Single HP + heal but powerfull // long lasting? // maby give it a damage procc when attacking that leeches HP. (need to be balanced towards engineer sniper heal)

AoE pet: Lower AoE HP buff to party in range +heal with a splash AoE damage to ppl around you or a single friendly/enemy target.

Tank pet: Big AoE HP+ Heal with short CD (20-25 sec) and short duration (10 sec) with the 25% procc dmg on being attacked. to all players around depending on stacks but on a short radius.
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zwerrie
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Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#217 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:28 am

Spoiler:
Lets not fix something that aint broken, Keg is fine as is
User warned for this post. Its a balance discussion, this post adds nothing to the discussion. -Natherul

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Grunbag
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Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#218 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:23 am

Spoiler:
faiden wrote:
What I mean with the range and I thought was obvious was the radius is getting the increase..

Sniper turret is a single target DPS with no group utility play and is a selfish play-style and should also get a selfish keg for it. Just give them the duration on how often they need to recast the keg but the radius is low as they are mostly stationary. But if the keg does not need to placed down to often they get more AP to focus on damage.

Bombardment turret play-style has a more AoE play-style and needs to move around more hence the Radius increase and gets the party heal because of the whole AoE style. I would add a lower than sniper duration increase thou.

Flame turret is pure support and tank style: Hence they get the out of party heal and stackable. Because that's basically their job to stay still and buff//debuff players.

The keg should fit the turret. and ofc be targetable just like magus removable HP buff

Magus could go something like:

Sniper pet: Single HP + heal but powerfull // long lasting? // maby give it a damage procc when attacking that leeches HP. (need to be balanced towards engineer sniper heal)

AoE pet: Lower AoE HP buff to party in range +heal with a splash AoE damage to ppl around you or a single friendly/enemy target.

Tank pet: Big AoE HP+ Heal with short CD (20-25 sec) and short duration (10 sec) with the 25% procc dmg on being attacked. to all players around depending on stacks but on a short radius.
1) rifleman is not a selfish build at all , really useful in organised group / wb . It deserve to help team play as well . GUn turret never increase anyradius btw.
2) after thinking of bombardment turret proposal, keg would only be annoyance to redeploy near party player and would make vulnerable grenadier too often .without getting any reward of this change.
3) Tinkerer doesn't have any radius decrease , at opposite flame turret increase his radius so it has nonsense .

As I said you cant make keg targetable because it already have a counter part : it got 2 sec cast time so magus can increase this cast time by 50% With a tactic and it is interruptable (any CC during castime would stop keg deployed aswell)
Only few class can remove magus wounds buff while if keg s targetable anyone wild be able to remove it .

Also, we can't make any proposal / mirror appeal for magus in this balance thread .

If you want to follow the logic of turret buff :

gunturret would give a healboost (40% full 8 stack , heal only engineer)

Bombardment turret would give shorter keg's heal tick interval, healing only party and stackable (would require to have 2 engineer in the same party to stack then) so using keg as a grenadier would need more teamplay/comunication for staying close to your party member and would make keg able to "focus" his target (party memebers), but rewarded by short tick interval that would compensate the 3 target keg lose and no out party heal anymore.

Flameturret would increase aoe cap/radius , 9 target out of party stackable (following flameturret buff : - Increases the radius of any of your AoE skills by 6.25% per stack to a maximum of 50%.)


You'd solve lordroom keg heal issue, reducing add that can heal without being in a group/wb (no one except tinkerer can heal out of party, if grenadier / sniper use flameturret they basically stop dps due to range debuff so not interesting for them) and no more duo/trio of sniper healing each other on top of keep wall anymore
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faiden
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Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#219 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:11 am

Spoiler:
Grunbag wrote:
faiden wrote:
Grunbag wrote:
Keg as no range it only has aoe radius /cap. Rifleman doesn't increase radius . Your whole proposal is wrong.
I'm against the targetable thing : keg as a 2 sec cast time it has counterpart : cast time increase by magus tactic and interupt.
I think we should make group gameplay more attractive than pug so self heal is a bad idea for rifleman .
You can't follow turret buff cause as I said bombardment and flame increase aoe radius /cap and tick interval so it'd make keg way more powerfull (but I'd agree to make it more powerfull eheh !)
I think my proposal limit already a Lot some keg use , it serves the groups (grenadiers would be able dedicate their keg to their group that's why I think make keg limited to party but stackable with bombardment turret would be better) so each path would use keg differentry (smarter use imo)
What I mean with the range and I thought was obvious was the radius is getting the increase..

Sniper turret is a single target DPS with no group utility play and is a selfish play-style and should also get a selfish keg for it. Just give them the duration on how often they need to recast the keg but the radius is low as they are mostly stationary. But if the keg does not need to placed down to often they get more AP to focus on damage.

Bombardment turret play-style has a more AoE play-style and needs to move around more hence the Radius increase and gets the party heal because of the whole AoE style. I would add a lower than sniper duration increase thou.

Flame turret is pure support and tank style: Hence they get the out of party heal and stackable. Because that's basically their job to stay still and buff//debuff players.

The keg should fit the turret. and ofc be targetable just like magus removable HP buff

Magus could go something like:

Sniper pet: Single HP + heal but powerfull // long lasting? // maby give it a damage procc when attacking that leeches HP. (need to be balanced towards engineer sniper heal)

AoE pet: Lower AoE HP buff to party in range +heal with a splash AoE damage to ppl around you or a single friendly/enemy target.

Tank pet: Big AoE HP+ Heal with short CD (20-25 sec) and short duration (10 sec) with the 25% procc dmg on being attacked. to all players around depending on stacks but on a short radius.

1) rifleman is not a selfish build at all , really useful in organised group / wb . It deserve to help team play as well . GUn turret never increase anyradius btw.
2) after thinkING of bombardment turret proposal, leg would only be annoyance to redeploy near party player and would make vulnerable grenadier too often .without getting any reward of this change.
3) Tinkerer doesn't have any radius decrease , at opposite flame turret increase his radius so it has nonsense .

As I said you cant make keg targetable because it already have a counter part : it got 2 sec cast time so magus can increase this cast time by 50% With a tactic and it is interruptable (any CC during castime would stop keg deployed aswell)
Only few class can remove magus wounds buff while if keg s targetable anyone wild be able to remove it .

Also, we can't make any proposal / mirror appeal for magus in this balance thread .

If you want to follow the logic of turret buff :

gunturret would give a healboost (40% full 8 stack , heal only engineer)

Bombardment turret would give shorter keg's heal tick interval, healing only party and stackable (would require to have 2 engineer in the same party to stack then) so using keg as a grenadier would need more teamplay/comunication for staying close to your party member and would make keg able to "focus" his target (party memebers), but rewarded by short tick interval that would compensate the 3 target keg lose and no out party heal anymore.

Flameturret would increase aoe cap/radius , 9 target out of party stackable

You'd solve lordroom keg heal issue, reducing add that can heal without being in a group/wb (no one except tinkerer can heal out of party, if grenadier / sniper use flameturret they basically stop dps due to range debuff so not interesting for them) and no more duo/trio of sniper healing each other on top of keep wall anymore
1) Yes the rifleman is a useful build because of the keg stacking that we now are trying to change. It is suppose to be a selfish long range single target DPS. What else does this sniper bring to the party? Can you link the build for greater clarification. I understand that the gun turret does not increase the radius. This was my proposed change to the keg to increase the radius for it as the turret increases the range for the engineer himself. Gun turret should get longer range single target heal or a boost to the healing numbers I agree.

2) You do not need to redeploy the keg if its radius is increased with the stacking buff. The thought is that the AoE engineer needs to be in the between backline and frontline. We might even make it a targetable ability like mines to help this issue. So either longer range heal or make the keg targetable with longer range with increased stacks. ( And ofc Party only heal. How about making it deployable on the move just like the other abilitys with pet out?

You mention that magus has a 50% castspeed debuff tactic? Please do share this information as I was not aware of it. I believe only Engineer has this ability and I find that not balanced with only a 5 sec downtime. As I understand you think magus has it to I believe you thought it was suppose to be a magus base skill and I AGREE. The keg have between 1-2 sec cast time depending on the close quarter tactic is equipped.

3) Yes tinkerer does not have radius decrease BUT as I mentioned with the sniper turret, It does get a range decrease.
so building from this If the main keg skill would have a larger Radius, deploying flame turret would reduce this radius as it decreases the range of the engineer. See how these radius and range go together now? However because it also increases the maximum numbers that engineer can hit with AoE it fits perfectly for the keg to be able to heal more than just the party and be stackable in a shorter range.

The keg SHOULD be targetable BUT also receive the defensive stats of what turret currently is active.

We kind of have to think about magus and their skill. As the engineer gets a slight buff/mechanic here and the magus would be left out. But yes that Is better left to another thread when we nail the Engineer issue down.
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Patch Notes 7/1/17 wrote:- Bugman's Best now heals group members instead of all allies

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Noergl
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Re: [Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

Post#220 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:22 am

I dont understand why you discuss possible changes in the last posts when still - according to penrils statement - its still not established that keg is broken and must be fixed.
First step: prove that keg is broken.
Second step: then we try to find a solution.

Just changing things without proof because some people feel it would be necessary isnt in the spirit these balance forums were established. If that would be the case, every skill would be open to change discussion without established facts, just because someone demands it.

Penril, please correct me if im wrong.
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