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[Partly implimented] BG: KD problem

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.
stmarrow
Posts: 51

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#51 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:51 pm

Tesq wrote:the assumption that the right mastery is not good is not a good reason to bind the 2h gameplay to a wing that alredy up force you to spec 2h.
No, the fact that the wing already forces you to spec 2H is a good reason to bind 2H gameplay to that wing.
Tesq wrote:you can play 2h even right mastery so why you wanna nerf it actually remove the 2h kd? ... The only reason to spec into left with 2h is CD requiring 2h if you put the 2h kd there then the only 2h gameplay a BG can have with out kimp himself is go full left wing.
Any 2H build without CD is essentially a flavor build, and as such won't be effected by the lack of KD as much as min/maxed builds.
Tesq wrote:all the dmg reduction are on mid path you can't go left+right unless you wanna get targetted first and die because you have no avoidance vs melee/sw+engi.
But most magical damage mitigation and avoidance is in right tree and core (disrupt tactic, mind killer, etc).

You argue that mid is mandatory for any BG build. You want to make it even more mandatory by sticking the KD there. And somehow this will improve build diversity.

Conversely, I argue that left is mandatory for any 2H BG build. I think build diversity is better served by dropping all 2H stuff there.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#52 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:18 pm

the mid kd is core and will not block any build instead rework bor it will; exatly why any 2h build is with out KD a self imposed weakness, you said it yourself

min/max build are not decided by theoryhammer, some one could decide that get the avoidance + right path the exatly same build you do with s+b but going 2h because there is no point go s+b for the BG and thus reworking bor you would just cut the BG spec potential. (also snare is the BG/IB cc)

The only real avoidance is in mid path--> parry % because is not only self mitigation but also guard one (the only way a bg can mitigate guard dmg, that and toughness not disrupt, moreover malekit bulwark provide magical dmg reduction while disrupt only vs bw spell which is useless if a bw spec for ignore your disrupt chance).
Last edited by Tesq on Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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stmarrow
Posts: 51

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#53 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:13 pm

Tesq wrote:the mid kd is core and will not block any build instead rework bor it will; exatly why any 2h build is with out KD a self imposed weakness, you said it yourself
Point was, any 2H build without CD is a self-imposed weakness as well.

Anyway. You're proposing a change of core skill Spiteful Slam to give different effects depending on equipped weapon, but is that even technically feasible?

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#54 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:41 pm

stmarrow wrote:
Tesq wrote:the mid kd is core and will not block any build instead rework bor it will; exatly why any 2h build is with out KD a self imposed weakness, you said it yourself
Point was, any 2H build without CD is a self-imposed weakness as well.

Anyway. You're proposing a change of core skill Spiteful Slam to give different effects depending on equipped weapon, but is that even technically feasible?
-exatly, any 2h is useless with out it so the best option is give it to a core skill so that any 2h build is not restricted to left mastery then
-i assume with client controll yes; tough it may be require client controll to rework Bor too idk.

summ: the option to rework bor into cave in is to prefer if you want limit BG due x and y reasons. Tough i still have to understand what this x and y are.

If the point is the dobuel acces to left + right ignoring mid then the BG is a kamikaze and he deserve all those utilities.
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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3807

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#55 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:40 pm

You talk about being restricted to the left tree if you take BoR but the reality is that 2H bg already is restricted to the left tree, these hypothetical of specing into the right and mid tree makes no sense and is more more than than needs to be done by desiring to make a modification to SS based on weapon

The fact of the matter is that 2H bg has a role to play and it takes a 2H to play that role, bringing the AoE wounds and crit debuff, that is why you go 2h bg, it is in the same vein as why you go 2h chosen, to apply crippling strikes in an AoE

If you dont get CD (+HD) you serve no purpose and SnB BG's inherent current inferiority to other destro tanks wouldnt change the fact that they would still be more useful than 2H BG that dosnt spec into the necessary required tools because you wont be any where as near as durable as them, worse guard and worse utility additionally you talk about avoidance but realistically the avoidance that 2H BG can spec into is the mid is not that strong because of how much constant hate expenditure 2H BG has, which antithesis to the philosophy of the mid tree which is about "holding on" to hate

SS should not be modified into an ability that changes based on what weapon you use in my eyes; there should be a clear difference, much like IB's shield slam and cave in

Shield slam is a 3s KD that has a 10s cd but needs block, Cave in is a an on demand CC with a 20s CD you trade cd for on demand cc

Like wise SS and BoR should differentiate in that while the latter is on demand, the former should have greater CC potential
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Tesq
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Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#56 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:10 pm

uhm i dont think you should follow the way IB goes, i think BG should be more restric to MId mastery and then take one of the other 2, with the chance to have full mid path + 2x lower parts of other twoi if s+b for rvr.(of course this is not the only tactic/skill which need improvement) If you think about it , it should be normal for tank have his main aoe cc (which is 1 different for every tank) then take the base avoidance. BG in fact can do all this on mid and then masterys should dictate his game style but choose between 2h/s+b should be a weapon choice not a build chocice. CD encourage 2h but just that.
You are not even force as the parry tactic give parry, not block, buff that tactic and you can have a simple diff betwenn hold the line and / ignoring 10% enemy defense. That feel like a good way to build your BG, based more on your choice than forced into just 2 type of play.

the problem you talk about is mid path require a fix the the parry tactics(and missing stuff on 3rd) but regardless to that it still the only good avoidance tactic you have and if it get fix and it will be ok you will had simply jimp BG in the end reworking bot(also snare is also there). The mid mastery still alow you to perform a bit even if just that the role of a tank; go with out parry tactic and guard dmg will be too much higer; there is no sense in doing that. Also there is no sense telling that ss rework is better than make bor into a 2h kd in my eyes, SS is core and dosen't require spec; this also let you keep Bor as it is now and regardless if you really dont want it you can save 1 point on the mastery to use elsewhere.
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Lektroluv
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Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#57 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:30 pm

Tesq wrote:uhm i dont think you should follow the way IB goes, i think BG should be more restric to MId mastery and then take one of the other 2, with the chance to have full mid path + 2x lower parts of other twoi if s+b for rvr.(of course this is not the only tactic/skill which need improvement) If you think about it , it should be normal for tank have his main aoe cc (which is 1 different for every tank) then take the base avoidance. BG in fact can do all this on mid and then masterys should dictate his game style but choose between 2h/s+b should be a weapon choice not a build chocice. CD encourage 2h but just that.
You are not even force as the parry tactic give parry, not block, buff that tactic and you can have a simple diff betwenn hold the line and / ignoring 10% enemy defense. That feel like a good way to build your BG, based more on your choice than forced into just 2 type of play.

the problem you talk about is mid path require a fix the the parry tactics(and missing stuff on 3rd) but regardless to that it still the only good avoidance tactic you have and if it get fix and it will be ok you will had simply jimp BG in the end reworking bot(also snare is also there). The mid mastery still alow you to perform a bit even if just that the role of a tank; go with out parry tactic and guard dmg will be too much higer; there is no sense in doing that. Also there is no sense telling that ss rework is better than make bor into a 2h kd in my eyes, SS is core and dosen't require spec; this also let you keep Bor as it is now and regardless if you really dont want it you can save 1 point on the mastery to use elsewhere.
I am not agree at all with your reasoning, central path already has theyr tools...
Is the sword + shield inspired path, already has area snare, already has trigrered based on hate KD , and the blade of ruin change only wanna adress the lack of a full time available KD for 2 hand blackguard tanks, like other tanks already have and let them stop the person kiting them, withouth require a block first.

Instead, i wouldn't never be agree to center the blackguard over central path, maybe other people like the defensive tanks and they continiusly guard other people (i think that role fits in chosens, or maybe black orcs, not on Blackguards) but others like me and many blackguards totally dislike the defensive role, and only guard a person if they think it is totally necesary.

My blackguard is full specced on first path, and is only able to barely reach the area snare on midle path because need many requeriments from first path for beign viable, any other experiment on midle path could destroy that path and the class for me.

Maybe you like to build the blackguard around midle path, but most of the blackguards prefer main first path and build an ofensive tank like swordmaster do, not guarding other players as much as kotbs or chosens do.
And that is the main reason for provide them something more appealing into an ability like blade of ruin, which nobody use, because is even worse than bad.

Making a carbon copy to the ironbreaker knowdown and changing enraging beating on 10 points spot for blade of ruin one on 6 spot, seems the more easy, the more reasonably solution, in my opinion.

Would allow sword and shield tanks to have acces to enraged beating for build hate faster on first path in case they wanna spend 6 points on it, or will allow the full centered first path 2h tanks to have finaly a KD in the very respectable spot of 10 points ability.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#58 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:47 am

build BG offensvily does not preclude any 2h avaiable skill on the mid path so why it should preclude the KD?

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

this is my build tough you may think my bg is full def which is not:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:

here you go, if you think that PPL building bg should avoid base avoidance that's have nothing to do by play with offensive bg or with def bg, it's a matter of fact that tank need some bare minimum % of avoidance, with out parry tactic you have none, even going with shield still require the parry tactic.

If you wanna play a tank near SM then the mid path is the mandatory one and the fix the parry tactic is required even more; there is no other way to have a 2h tank as a sm if it's not durable as a SM ( but that's for another thread).That passive tactic is the only thing which give you enough parry to survive guard dmg or direct focus and is not even clsoe to the SM channeling (that's why parry tactic need a fix ). There is no reason to spec full mastery as the channeling collide with the auto attack tactic, and the hate drop tactic is build for pve farm since in enemy aoe if you want spam aoe you have plenty of hate to use. There is also no reason to spec full tough as other tanks thx to the touigh tactic which make you saves point to increase str/wep skill + hastened doom and murderous wrath which will do your damage, actually also w-debuff. No experiment with KD on mid path will change something, SS is core after a fix you will still have the same build your BG have just gain the KD.

The very reason why im tell you to rework SS into 2h KD is that i think that the 2h tank of destru as much is SM for utility and durability should be BG. Other things need a fix for that to happen (and generaly to put bg into line) but if bor get reworked instead you will close so many fix options, think about in all these build how many fix will BG require and how much can be improved.

Spoiler:
Some "exemple" of builds you may have and you may pre nef for 2h due rework bor into KD and that also show a comparison between key skills in every path and it also show that malice is actually the best of all the mastery due to his sinergy and clary dosen't need more reason to spec into right know.


murderous wrath + wounds debuff give ya
-dmg+ armor ingore on the hit
-proable wounds debuff
-auto-procable auto attack haste

hatefull strike+ toughness tactic give ya
-dmg+agro (if it was fix to be feeading on weakneed here we regen in place of agro)
-max 45% toughness buff
-(MISS ONE)(but probably crush the weak got an active CD in order to have avoidance auto via tactic, maybe something minor here)

mind killer + soul killer tactic
-dmg +int/willpower (count as 1 becuase the primary stat is either one of these 2, this is physical skill economy because there where no more slot to assign and so...)
-out H-debuff/ (MISS HALF)
-(MISS ONE)


LEFT MASTERY:
-Hastened doom---> half the value but stack with all other wounds debuff in game ( solve the redundancy problem with mara/chosen and requiring a crit to proc it wont happen as opener everytime so it need to stack because it will have a limiting eff as wounds cap and not as wounds debuff for open the burst)

MID MASTERY:
-KD can also enlight with parry (solve KD problem)
-none shall pass----> from channeling to cost no ap/ self buff (cross mirror KOBS vigilance solve the panic button efficency)
-FoF--->changed armor part of buff into a 10% reduced armor penetration (to be usefull to in 2h set up and and working with out mastery contribution)
-*anger drives me--->from 30% parry buff to parry/dodge/disrupt buff for 40%(no other source of avoidance, key factor in allow 2h build but also keep in check the balance of all other mastery due being unique avoidance avaiable)
-feeding on weakness ---> remove CD
-terryfing foe---> proc change from hateful strike to feeding on weakness, 15% chance to debuff enemy toughness for feeding on weakness value (stack with aura and stat steal).


RIGHT MASTERY
mind killer--> from 3 stack to 1 stack
Soul killer--> also debuff for 20% magic miss chance
*shielding anger ---> 10/20% heal more on yourself and half the value % on every group member in 100 feet(stack with zealot tactic)
*unstopable fury---> mirror kobs runfang (not perfectly)(add dmg assist option to s+b + mid/right mastery build or either allow tri spec


2h: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:
s+b: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:
solo gank: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 3:;0:0:0:0:
off s+b: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 3:;0:0:0:0:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 3:;0:0:0:0:
pve farm: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:
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Lektroluv
Suspended
Posts: 243

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#59 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:22 pm

Tesq wrote:build BG offensvily does not preclude any 2h avaiable skill on the mid path so why it should preclude the KD?

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... ;;;0:0:0:0:

this is my build tough you may think my bg is full def which is not:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:

here you go, if you think that PPL building bg should avoid base avoidance that's have nothing to do by play with offensive bg or with def bg, it's a matter of fact that tank need some bare minimum % of avoidance, with out parry tactic you have none, even going with shield still require the parry tactic.

If you wanna play a tank near SM then the mid path is the mandatory one and the fix the parry tactic is required even more; there is no other way to have a 2h tank as a sm if it's not durable as a SM ( but that's for another thread).That passive tactic is the only thing which give you enough parry to survive guard dmg or direct focus and is not even clsoe to the SM channeling (that's why parry tactic need a fix ). There is no reason to spec full mastery as the channeling collide with the auto attack tactic, and the hate drop tactic is build for pve farm since in enemy aoe if you want spam aoe you have plenty of hate to use. There is also no reason to spec full tough as other tanks thx to the touigh tactic which make you saves point to increase str/wep skill + hastened doom and murderous wrath which will do your damage, actually also w-debuff. No experiment with KD on mid path will change something, SS is core after a fix you will still have the same build your BG have just gain the KD.

The very reason why im tell you to rework SS into 2h KD is that i think that the 2h tank of destru as much is SM for utility and durability should be BG. Other things need a fix for that to happen (and generaly to put bg into line) but if bor get reworked instead you will close so many fix options, think about in all these build how many fix will BG require and how much can be improved.

Spoiler:
Some "exemple" of builds you may have and you may pre nef for 2h due rework bor into KD and that also show a comparison between key skills in every path and it also show that malice is actually the best of all the mastery due to his sinergy and clary dosen't need more reason to spec into right know.


murderous wrath + wounds debuff give ya
-dmg+ armor ingore on the hit
-proable wounds debuff
-auto-procable auto attack haste

hatefull strike+ toughness tactic give ya
-dmg+agro (if it was fix to be feeading on weakneed here we regen in place of agro)
-max 45% toughness buff
-(MISS ONE)(but probably crush the weak got an active CD in order to have avoidance auto via tactic, maybe something minor here)

mind killer + soul killer tactic
-dmg +int/willpower (count as 1 becuase the primary stat is either one of these 2, this is physical skill economy because there where no more slot to assign and so...)
-out H-debuff/ (MISS HALF)
-(MISS ONE)


LEFT MASTERY:
-Hastened doom---> half the value but stack with all other wounds debuff in game ( solve the redundancy problem with mara/chosen and requiring a crit to proc it wont happen as opener everytime so it need to stack because it will have a limiting eff as wounds cap and not as wounds debuff for open the burst)

MID MASTERY:
-KD can also enlight with parry (solve KD problem)
-none shall pass----> from channeling to cost no ap/ self buff (cross mirror KOBS vigilance solve the panic button efficency)
-FoF--->changed armor part of buff into a 10% reduced armor penetration (to be usefull to in 2h set up and and working with out mastery contribution)
-*anger drives me--->from 30% parry buff to parry/dodge/disrupt buff for 40%(no other source of avoidance, key factor in allow 2h build but also keep in check the balance of all other mastery due being unique avoidance avaiable)
-feeding on weakness ---> remove CD
-terryfing foe---> proc change from hateful strike to feeding on weakness, 15% chance to debuff enemy toughness for feeding on weakness value (stack with aura and stat steal).


RIGHT MASTERY
mind killer--> from 3 stack to 1 stack
Soul killer--> also debuff for 20% magic miss chance
*shielding anger ---> 10/20% heal more on yourself and half the value % on every group member in 100 feet(stack with zealot tactic)
*unstopable fury---> mirror kobs runfang (not perfectly)(add dmg assist option to s+b + mid/right mastery build or either allow tri spec


2h: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:
s+b: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:
solo gank: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 3:;0:0:0:0:
off s+b: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 3:;0:0:0:0:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 3:;0:0:0:0:
pve farm: http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=bg; ... 6:;0:0:0:0:

I didn't stop thinking deeply about what changes could make blackguard equal or in line with other tanks, i am just suggesting a conservative test like change Blade of ruin for a 3 sec full time available and not based on hate knowdown, which add to the already changed position of area snare in midle path, can make the class a decent playable tank while we wait for developers have acces to client control for more aggressive tests on class.

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Gerv
Banned
Posts: 811

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#60 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:27 pm

I agree the BG should be given a 3 sec KD with the DOT component similar to IB following these ideas,
15 hate cost
30 ap cost
20 sec cooldown
Require 2hd

Until the BG has a on demand KD (no proc requirement) whether 2hd or or shield the BG will never be considered for any competitive group. By introducing the 2hd requirement you garentee that the 2 KDs can not be taken together. This begins to allow tank comps of BO with AoE snare who opt for more damage in left tree + BG.

This is a strong step towards this point.
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