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[Partly implimented] BG: KD problem

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

[Partly implimented] BG: KD problem

Post#1 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:15 pm

As base knowledge and as what out from :viewtopic.php?f=73&t=19147&start=40

PROBLEM
the bg have daily life issues with his KD, the problems are basically two:

1) no 2h KD in any form ( it's the only tank, kd can require to spec into a mastery but can always be used by 2h user exept on BG or in case of IB it have a dedicated 2h KD )
2) even s+b KD is not efficent due two problem:
- A) block requirement on a tank which have very low block kind of 5% + renown(15%) and that's all
- B)it can be situational by not block proc in the moment you most need it aka when target is kiting for exemple and noone is attack you or your guard or either when enemy are attaking not the dd you are guarding

SOLUTIONS:
solution proposed/emerged on the other thread:

-bor as cave-in mirror (or other skill)
-KD on mid path get parry label but maybe lower , if 2h, the KD from 5 to max 3/4 sec duration
-Bor as cave in mirror + parry label added to mid mastery KD but made requrie shield
-other
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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3807

Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#2 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:21 pm

Problem:
2H blackguard is still considered an inferior play-style to SnB DPS BG due to not only the lack of surviveablity and utility from the loss of a shield but also the lack of hard CC, the previous changes to the loathing tree while nice, did not really address the issues plaguing the class in group play and was more beneficial to SnB BG than 2H BG

Solution:
The solution is what i and many others discussed in the recent BG thread make Blade of Ruin into a Cave in Mirror, a 3S KD with a DoT component, additionally to ensure that this is not a buff for SnB BG the parry requirement should be changed to requiring a 2H

Because 2H BG still needs to spec up to CD anyway there is no need to do such things as move BoR to mirror Cave In's position in the tree, some people cite the undetuantable tactic and the like as evidence to not give 2H BG a KD but at its core it is a pugging tactic and is no where near that effective vs a coordinated group

Lastly, BoR was somethign that was never really specd before; a DoT while nice and all, it was simply considered a waste of a mastery point as their were "better things" to get, now If BoR were to become a real viable option then there would be need to be a choice made between it and getting other skills or tactics in loathing and anguish so there is still a trade off to be made
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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#3 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:40 pm

Moving to discussions.

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megadeath
Posts: 153

Re: BG: KD problem

Post#4 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:45 pm

Tesq wrote: very low block kind of 5% + renown(15%) and that's all
It's actually ~4% base +10% from renown
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"My RvR experience improved by 100% after I spent 50 renown points in Improved Flee and Cleansing Wind!"
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Ninepaces
Posts: 313

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#5 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:15 pm

Spoiler:
TenTonHammer wrote:Problem:
2H blackguard is still considered an inferior play-style to SnB DPS BG due to not only the lack of surviveablity and utility from the loss of a shield but also the lack of hard CC, the previous changes to the loathing tree while nice, did not really address the issues plaguing the class in group play and was more beneficial to SnB BG than 2H BG

I 100% disagree with this. 2h is the only way to play BG and actually contribute to your group.
If you are not gonna bother explaining why, don't post in this thread. No +/- 1's - Penril.

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Morf
Posts: 1247

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#6 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:33 pm

Problem i can see is all tank kd's are 10 points (other then bg and ib snb kd's) BOR requires only 6 points.
If it is the way to go it might be worth considering having the duration of the kd based on hate like spiteful slam, 30 hate - 1 sec, 60 hate - 2 secs, 90 hate - 3 secs to justify only 6 points instead of 10.
Morfee - Shaman / Mynnos - Kotbs / Grubod - Black Orc / Snubz - Squig Herder

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#7 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:46 pm

Morf wrote:Problem i can see is all tank kd's are 10 points (other then bg and ib snb kd's) BOR requires only 6 points.
If it is the way to go it might be worth considering having the duration of the kd based on hate like spiteful slam, 30 hate - 1 sec, 60 hate - 2 secs, 90 hate - 3 secs to justify only 6 points instead of 10.
consider that both IB/BG shield kd is core and the disposition on the mastery mean few when if you go 2h you fully go into that mastery IB is not forced to 2h but if he does he have a KD. The same is totally different for BG which have different tools some are aoe some are ST. Some are high as CD on 13 pt some were high as the snare per changes.
BG due to avoidance is forced to go deeper into mid path for every single build this limit a lot the points you can spend and due to this a 2h KD must be either easy accesable or incorpored directly into the currently KD; in particular crit tactic is also low on the mastery which mean the left wing was thin maybe in the low section to offer offensive option to the s+b BG while the upper is more aoe oriented and require 2h.

Regardless the 2h problem what ppl think about the mid mastery kd? is that good for s+b or even if limited to requrie a shield it should have a the parry label? i think that it's pretty lame it have not, regardless the form in which a kd solution for 2h will be found i think that the mid mastery KD need anyway to enlight even on parry not only block.

my problem behind the bor rework is that if you make Bor into a KD and keep then the dot compenent then it became efficent on the KD only and is lost for everyother situation because a KD have a 20 sec CD which mean the dot would be lost basically for every other assist action when the KD is not avaiable.
I would prefer see the mid KD fixed to allow 2h (the duration is not that much important be it either 3-4 sec; but if it's hate based should be 4 sec due how much fast hate drop and being unvaiable at the start of the combat). Also keep in mind that an easy acces to KD mean replace easier a chosen or BO becuase both chosen/BG can have super punt and KD or replace a BO because due to stat steal dispositon and snare the BO is forced to ignore the kd on mid path also as show into the BG thread which is linked into main post i made a comparison of the skill economy in every mastery and the malice is the best at that currently, put another double effect skill into malice feel not right for me.
Spoiler:
murderous wrath + wounds debuff give ya
-dmg+ armor ingore on the hit
-wounds debuff
-procable auto attack haste

hatefull strike+ toughness tactic give ya
-dmg+agro (agro as half is useless in pvp, feeding on weakness would had been better to proc the tactic)
-max 45% toughness buff
-(MISS ONE)

mind killer + soul killer tactic
-dmg +int/willpower (count as 1 becuase the primary stat is either one of these 2, this is physical skill economy because there where no more slot to assign and so...)
-out H-debuff/ (MISS HALF)
-(MISS ONE)
Last edited by Tesq on Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Morf
Posts: 1247

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#8 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:02 pm

Tesq wrote: consider that both IB/BG shield kd is core and the disposition on the mastery mean few when if you go 2h you fully go into that mastery IB is not forced to 2h but if he does he have a KD. The same is totally different for BG which have different tools some are aoe some are ST. Some are high as CD on 13 pt some were high as the snare per changes.
BG due to avoidance is forced to go deeper into mid path for every single build this limit a lot the points you can spend and due to this a 2h KD must be either easy accesable or incorpored directly into the currently KD; in particular crit tactic is also low on the mastery which mean the left wing was thing in the low section to offer offensive option to the s+b BG while the upper is more aoe oriented and require 2h.

Regardless the 2h problem what ppl think about the mid mastery kd? is that good for s+b or even if limited to requrie a shield it should have a the parry label? i think that it's pretty lame it have not, regardless the form in which a kd solution for 2h will be found i think that the mid mastery KD need anyway to enlight even on parry not onlyblock

my problem behind the bor rework is that if you make Bor into a KD and keep then the dot compenent then it became efficent on the KD only and is lost for everyother situation because a KD have a 20 sec CD which mean the dot would be lost basically for every other assist action when the KD is not avaiable.
I would prefer see the mid KD fixed to allow 2h (the duration is not that much important be it either 3-4 sec). Also keep in mind that an easy acces to KD mean replace easier a chosen or BO becuase both chosen/BG can have super punt and KD or replace a BO because due to stat steal dispositon and snare the BO is forced to ignore the kd on mid path
I dont agree with changing spiteful slam duration to cater 2h play, bg's have the best CC in the game, longest punt and longest KD, this seems to be forgotten by ppl who are wanting bg buffs prolly based on pug play where CC is thrown around willy-nilly.

The changes to loathing really helped, playing a bg myself with a 2h i have alot of options on mastery specs, i cannot get every great tactic or skill but i can take what i need, you can be a 2h near unkillable def beast or 2h dps where you have good damage while also maintaining a solid defense tnx to anger drives me being moved down meaning you are parrying nearly all guard damage and due to terrifying foe being so accesible, imo there are not so many problems as some may have you believe.

I dont think any change should be done so that it has an impact on what makes bg great/unique in a sense, longest punt, longest kd.
Morfee - Shaman / Mynnos - Kotbs / Grubod - Black Orc / Snubz - Squig Herder

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#9 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:13 pm

if the wall is BG being durable that's pretty a bad argument going 2h mean loose shield so both hold the line for yourself and your allies

My bg have something like 61% parry only thx to the epic weapon quest, dodge /disrupt sit onto a 28%-30% (with weapon proc) that's are pretty poor values and avoidance is a lot more important than what ppl think. Is not even comparable to s+b chosen or a s+b SM or a 2h SM. These 2 tanks are avoidance whise the better in game and 2h SM show why you need so much efficent durability to a good 2h tank. BG does have not any block buff either.
The cc sy but is a bit bad too, avery good punt is avaiable to chosen and instead is also aviable from the start of the fight and the same goes for KD while BG dont atm have a 2h KD and both kd and punt are hate based which mean problems over problems due considering that they not cost hate -->they need a high level of hate which on BG is hard because other utilities drop your hate consistently and drop hate mean drop your defense.
61% parry is a pve value that i will never have in pvp, i most likely have 40% at max + weapon proc =50% and we are still far away to be an unkillable beast. The difference with my chosen in survability is a lot, really a lot. S+b change few that's the reason i moved 2h.
Last edited by Tesq on Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3807

Re: Blade of Ruin modified into a Cave In mirrior

Post#10 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:19 pm

Morf wrote:Problem i can see is all tank kd's are 10 points (other then bg and ib snb kd's) BOR requires only 6 points.
If it is the way to go it might be worth considering having the duration of the kd based on hate like spiteful slam, 30 hate - 1 sec, 60 hate - 2 secs, 90 hate - 3 secs to justify only 6 points instead of 10.
The position of the KD is ireelevent considering that BG the want to play 2h will still have to go up to cd to even be remotly relevent in the 2h playstyle this is not like other tank specs were you to up the trees to just get the kd

Additionally making it require 90 hate to have a standard duration kd is extreamly punishing considering how intensively hate spending the 2h play style is, you are going to be constantly spamming CD, furious howl and pitiless strike/murderous wrath


The core superpunt desnt seem all that valuble to destro groups whom. Seem more than happy to make do with chosen punt

Lastly unlike every other tank kd, the Bg kd is not a garruntee, it needs both block and near max hate for it's full 5s, we like to make statements that you can slap a guard on a target and you will be fine but that's not the case and when you need to hard cc a target it's not always their for you when you need to use that 5s kd

What real cc does 2h Bg have? The punt that needs near max hate to be useful? the class can't afford to get WoS nor do parties need it b/c of big brawlin
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