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[Review] [WP/DOK] Grace/Sacrifice as a Melee Healer

These proposals have passed an internal review and are implemented in some way on the server. Review for specific implementation details.
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Merrillian
Posts: 26

[Review] [WP/DOK] Grace/Sacrifice as a Melee Healer

Post#1 » Fri May 19, 2017 4:36 am

Hello, I play a Warrior Priest named Gordonfreman.

I have played both on live and now the blessing that is RoR, and I would like to discuss a pressing issue for the Grace/Sacrifice trees in the role of a Melee Healer, survivability.

The Issue:
To engage in melee combat with the currently accessible gear, and provide the on melee hit heals/buffs needed to perform in a hybrid role, we are unable to sustain ourselves without a dedicated healer and guard.
This reliance breaks the meta of 2+2+2. Where tanks need to be able to swap their guard at will and healers play loose with pre-hots.
Ideally we should be able to fill either the healer or tank role as a front line melee.

I defend that the sustained damage as Grace/Sacrifice is on par with other melee and our lack of burst, cc and a proper heal debuff is balanced.

I defend that the healing generated by Divine Assault and Sigmar's Radiance is balanced, while Sigmar's Shield is lacking.
But, a dead healer provides no heals.

I defend that we are higher priority kill targets than any other melee class for three reasons:
  • A DoK/WP badge when making quick assist calls means “healer”, means kill immediately.
  • We are easy targets being in melee.
    • Limited number of non-tank melee, a very specific reason which is separate but highlights reason 3.
  • We are medium to low defense.
    • Sorc/BW can efficiently cleave from us.
    • AM/Shaman can life tap off us.
Because of these reasons I believe a boost to our survivability is the highest priority and will quickly see improved quality and performance through increased engagement time.

Desired Goal:
  • Increase survivability without impacting Salvation or Wrath.
  • Allow for solutions to be implemented easily.
  • Reward sustained engagement.

In order to achieve point one, I have tied my main suggestions to three core tactics.
I believe Sigmar's Shield needs to be addressed and at least one other suggested improvement made in order to meet this goal.

Priority One – Impact Low – scaling issue (SS)
  • Sigmar’s Shield
    Currently 133(ish) hp heal per proc during 7sec duration.
    • Problem: Heal amount needs to at the least be in line with a healing hand tick or prayer of devotion.
      ~300 per proc at 600 strength.
    • Solution: Add scaling where either strength or will are used, whichever is highest.
      Additionally, remove 20% penalty for Divine Fury and Fanaticism.
      Testing will be needed to confirm RF/SE consumption is balanced.
Priority Two – Impact High
Add sustainability via existing Tactic
  • Divine Warding
    Divine Warding is an amazing tactic for book warrior priests, it provides safety from cleave and dots (fluff). This is an important safeguard that many squishy two-hand tanks see, their health never dips from fluff so they are not perceived as a good swap target.
    • Problem: Divine Warding does not currently proc on any grace ability.
    • Solution: 25% chance per target affected by Sigmar's Radiance.
      50% chance per tick of Divine Assault.
      Divine Warding retains its willpower based scaling and will not refresh itself from these abilities.
  • Leading the Prayer
    Reward the player for engagement with increased proc chances of Prayer of Devotion on ability use.
    • Problem: Procs from Leading the Prayer are unreliable and greatly depend upon group make-up for a return over Prayer of Absolution.
    • Solution: Leading the Prayer may now also proc on the players attacks:
      50% chance on successful Sigmar's Radiance or tick of Divine Assault.
Priority Three – Impact Very High
Improve Quality of Life, survivability and reduce selfish targeting.
  • Grace of Sigmar
    • Problem: Grace/Sacrifice has many options to buff and heal a defensive target, but most often these abilities are needed to improve the survivability of the caster themselves.
    • Solution: Grace of Sigmar now causes Sigmar’s shield, Sigmar’s Vision, Sigmar’s Fist and Divine assault to affect the caster as well as the defensive target.

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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Grace/Sacrifice as a Melee Healer

Post#2 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:02 pm

Moving to Discussions.

dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: Grace/Sacrifice as a Melee Healer

Post#3 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:22 pm

Quick ask for clarification -- should this discussion just be about WP or are there DoK alternatives to these abilities that are/should be included in the balance discussion?
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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Grace/Sacrifice as a Melee Healer

Post#4 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:23 pm

I would focus on WP. There are some similar Dok proposals I plan on moving soon (possibly immediately after I lock the Da Toughest! one).

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Grace/Sacrifice as a Melee Healer

Post#5 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:43 pm

Sigmar's Shield is very potent as it is imo, so not sure it needs such a drastic buff.

I really like the third proposal, would create amazing synergy between melee healer and IB (giving them more of a spot in groups), would definitely be worth testing. I'm curious: would double SS = 2x as much RF depletion with your proposal? Also it would give the Grace WP a good defensive utility role (increasing your parry).

I think it would perhaps be a bit too powerful in small encounters/solo: 2x divine assault & SS would be nigh impossible to kill with a good IB guarding. Otherwise, I think it would definitely be worth testing out. Perhaps toning down DA's healing portion if this tactic is equipped would be fair?
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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: Grace/Sacrifice as a Melee Healer

Post#6 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:25 am

let's review the issue.

it's ok in duo, small scale.
survival issue is starting from 12x12, wb scale. you are immediate target of 5+ in melee range.
lack of your own melee is huge problem. WL/SL escape, WH at backline.
you are left behind with tanks. you become magnet of aggro.
it's something you can't fix with few healing skills.

what grace WP need is escape skill. snare breaker.
grace skills that heal through focus of sorc,sh,choppa? it's impossible and lead OP in small scale.

in small scale, most effective way to counter melee heal is CC. snare + kite and KD/KB.
snare breaker will give small chance to survive in both big scale, small scale.

tie it to Sigmar's Grace maybe? only for grace spec. with 1m CD. 2sec cast already risky in melee range.

you can't do running heal like shaman. it's not gonna OP.

ps. check range of Sigmar's Grace plz? it's not cover WC spawn area.
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS5, BW5, WP8, WH7, IB7, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG8, Sorc8, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg8, Ze7, Mara8, BO6, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Grace/Sacrifice as a Melee Healer

Post#7 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:37 am

(Just as an aside: snare issues plague all of the melee WP/DOK specs, so let's bear that in mind. Sorry for OT, can't delete this message for some reason)
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Grace/Sacrifice as a Melee Healer

Post#8 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:49 pm

mm let's make a bit a summary,

1-problems:

- low durability

2-cause of the problem

-base durability (and guard)
-how melee heal work
-how you can be blocked from heal


A) the low durability problem ( and guard) :

guard put on any class upon sufficent heals make it stay alive-> granted this, then a grace wp can heal if guarded -> yes
The problem is get away 1 guard, and with out, not being destroyed ( claim about bw aka magic classes be able to nuke you is not rioght as witha kobs and tome jewerly you can overcapped resistence and so get the same dmg reduction of a tank from magic resistence, this is problem of not haveing guard and guard is a passive % dmg reduction which cannot eb bypassed or ignored; and that's how you remove the hard hitting dmg.

-> solve this by:

-give a coevalent of guard whcih is capless (not like detaunt 9 ppl) and is passive and active 100% of the time. Dosen't need to be 50% but must not stack with guard.

-make heal stuff which work on cast heals on melee heals (agree) as x op proposal so that melee heals get closer to casted heals.

B) how melee heals work and the problem of the extremism:

- parry = no heals, not soft target = low heals
- hit= heal, hit soft target = more heals
-multiplers and debuff defense which reduce in % couse value to skyrocket

-> solve this by:

-remove extremisms by make the heals part always go on
-the dmg part can be parry/block
-remove multiplers

C) melee heals vs cast heals and the synergy problem and tactic and how you can be bleock from heals

-melee heals / or lifetap dont proc heal tactics/skill
-melee heals / or lifetap have different stats for the heals component (same for dmg)
-melee heals / or lifetap use dmg multiplers vs caster heals which use raw value.
-CC either silence/disarm/ KD/ sbare/ set back will gratly make this work of melee heal harder

->solve by:

-change stats which contr to values of heals (str and melee crit ) into willpower and heal crit (this solve also the problem of melee dps be also able to be a melee healer; shoudl jsut be (healer ; no relevant dmg either if cast heals or melee heals and dps; no heals or very very few but dmg as expected by a DD).

-by change values, type and contribution, melee heals/lifetap can now proc tactics /skill before accessible to only cast heals. (such dok/wp absorbe)

-remove multiplers, with 1) heals always go on and subsequentialy 2) heal debuff working to some degree as they are now heals and have values which can be usde as comparison and so balanced

-by make the class a general healer in 1 spec both melee and caster whis will solve silence and disarm problem as you can swap ebtween cast and melee if silenced/disarm; to resiste KD +burst you need as wrote above a DMG reduction passive buff (not stackable with guard (15% is a right pick for exemple, and eh best candidate is the currently armor buff)

-Snare is not a real prob if you just have 1 build both for melee/ cast heals

-dok/wp as frontliner should be somewhat more hard to set back (if not immune) than other healers, this is why cast time increase effect exist in game; they should affect closer healers to the frontline. (balance between melee and cast can be reach by essence management by force you to melee as the previously ab ex of aza.


Which mean: most issues are seconderies to preliminary ones

issue 1-> is a post balancing guard/passive % mitigation problem, which is a wp/dok core problem which should be solve firstly anyway as they are frotnline/medium line healer. Any balance to a skill which is not a passive % is preposterious since it should be done after the melee healer had solved the guard dependancy and not before.


issue 2 ->

A) as x what above i agree BUT no need to change tactic....simple make it proc on crit; provide you fixed melee heals (or not in reality can work regardless ) first and they are in the same league and work like cast heals they will proc the same way by default the same tactics.

B) mm false problem, leading the prayer is a tactic which is not role focussed (in sense it was not saw as core for both dok/wp , is something which allow the other party member to heal WP , yes it matter in regard his durability in this sense but the proc alredy heal the wp make him alredy durable allow tactics to heal himself would make prayer heal him 2 x times, this is not the aim of the tactic and regardless the tactic works pretty much well alredy, just (reference my grace wp) is party set up dependat so heavy melee and aoe spam make it better than when rdps and st spam (since there is no ICD more hits on more ppl are better). So i dont agree at all here tactics is fine and dont need any change.


issue 3: i have to some what disagree on this , the problem here is not be able to buff other player, nor not have problem keep up the buff on both you and your ally, this si not a support class as a tank is a healer melee, it need to heal not buff parry to friednly target like an IB do wwith his parry buff.
If there is something to change about this on contraire it's in fact remove the target thing and make it only a personal buff so you wont scew it and buff someone in your place because you didn't cleared your target since you know, you are costantly swapping friendly tab for cleanse, and st lifetap, hot (sometimes). The aim is make "YOU" more durable not the ally so i reiterate i disagree on making this more party friendly; it should not, it should be personal only instead and no target required possible also self buff (no need to hit since it remove 1 weakness that wp have vs dok , downside is alredy be able to be shattered).
Moreover by solve the melee heals problem by make them more in line with cast heals this tactic have no place iy should be removed probably and replaced with something else as the heal should anyway be x se viable as heal and have the right value compared to other all heals for every x GCD spent , not more , note less.


disclaimer: this is based on the exp with my grace wp here on ror
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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Grace/Sacrifice as a Melee Healer

Post#9 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:59 pm

Time to lock.

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