[Zealot] Path of Witchcraft Abilities

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Jaycub
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[Zealot] Path of Witchcraft Abilities

Post#1 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:37 pm

1. Identify the issue.

A virtually unused tree, which only sees use in a completely unviable single target DPS spec for zealot that maybe 3 people have used longer than a few hours on this server.


2. Explain why it's an issue.

Aside from relegating DPS zealot to a 1 spot 1 spec(left tree bomb w/ right tree HD tactic) in organized warbands, this awful tree also pigeon holes heal zealot to two specs which use a root spec that is 90% the same on both, and hardly anyone uses the off spec as trading stagger for very gimmicky winds and armor debuff tactic is hardly worth it not to mention the gear and settings required.


3. Propose a viable solution to the problem.

There are a lot of things that need to be done to tactics, and abilities in all the trees for zealot/RP to make their class mechanic actually useful, and promote intelligent and skillful rewarding play in doing so for the entire spectrum of playstyles not just healing or dps.

But because trying to purpose an entire set of changes spanning multiple abilities and trees is a nightmare I thought I would purpose 1 small and 1 big change to a trees abilities that sees no play on zealot and go from there.


1. Add a snare to storm of ravens, essentially a mirror of the BW ability withering heat in the same exact spot in the mastery tree.

2. Change mirror of madness to an ability which is useful against all targets, not just healers.


I find it hard to come up with a really good argument as to why storm of ravens absolutely needs the snare other than this tree really needs any help it can get and I would assume the mirror from BW would be an easy enough change. A ranged on demand snare has in my experience in running with BW's in order premades proven to be quite useful at times in catching a target, but nothing spectacular like pull/fetch or m1 root. Utility tied to damage is of course making the ability attractive not only to DPS zealots but heal zealots as well.

As for mirror, this is the biggest letdown of the tree. at a whopping 13 points investment in the tree you are getting an ability which only works on healers, and only works on healers being pressured with lethal dps. The latter statement is very important to understand why this ability is trash. Healers in this game are very rarely the go to 1st target, unless a group is able to execute a morale lockdown and dump and even then it is a scary situation to go all in on a healer with their DPS up as it exposes your backlines among other things and the downtime required.

Mirror needs to be reworked into something useful against all targets for it to be speced, and ideally something that is useful to both healer and DPS spec zealot. That means something that rivals 6 sec stagger, or the bubble proc and winds in the left tree. Not to mention the loss of scaling on healing abilities in those trees.

Personally the best idea that I have been able to come up with that has mechanics already present in the game so it may be easier or even possible at all to implement without the patcher is as follows.

Mirror of madness: For the next 7 seconds your target mirrors back 50% damage taken back to the attacker.

>2 sec cast
>60 sec cooldown
>damage received is not reduced
>damage reflected should not be mitigated by anything (morale type) or only by toughness (non scaling damage type?)

So this is basically a substantially toned down forked aggression m4 from mara turned into a castable buff. I thought of quite a lot of counter play and restrictions/conditions for it. But for simplicities sake I think it is best to leave it at this in a "experimental" state for a patch then deem what should be done to either nerf/buff it. For instance adding positional checks could make it so it punishes RDPS more than MDPS, requiring harbringer to be active for the buff to continue existing on the target means you would have to take a huge hit to healing output for that time or cancel it early etc...

This type of mechanic which in other games where it exists, is shown to be a very good counter to insane burst. Which is kind of the cancer/meta we have been dealing with here. In warband vs warband its the morale dumps, in small scale 6 mans it's building groups around the most burst damage possible etc...

but really any change to MoM discussed here if this passes would make the tree and the ability magnitudes better.
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Penril
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Re: [Zealot] Path of Witchcraft Abilities

Post#2 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:56 pm

Moving to discussions.

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Toldavf
Posts: 1569

Re: [Zealot] Path of Witchcraft Abilities

Post#3 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:48 pm

I don't mind the snare as it would be very small like withering heats and i don't really see a 3 second snare off the first tick breaking dps zealot into the meta. All in all that would be a good change which will help the class a bit to actually kite and get the full channel off.

For your second suggestion i object strongly morale damage is not something that you should hand out to core abilities, it's really potent stuff and should be kept exclusively for morale abilities. As a faction I think destro already have sufficient retaliatory damage

I think would be better to use client control to rework the ability fully name and all.
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Tesq
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Re: [Zealot] Path of Witchcraft Abilities

Post#4 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:30 pm

mmm i dont think that (tough probably here is needed more than on bw) put another

3 sec / ranged / uncleansebale snare (since it re apply every tick)-> as bw one is a right thing to do
Spoiler:
also best target for a change like that would be a magus.. not zealot... since they are the classes which share these stuff (magus ap on channeling should get replaced with sanre)
tough runy have a snare so the idea maybe is not so off the edge but still a snare that re apply every tick feel overkilling
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Toldavf
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Re: [Zealot] Path of Witchcraft Abilities

Post#5 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:28 pm

Tesq wrote:mmm i dont think that (tough probably here is needed more than on bw) put another

3 sec / ranged / uncleansebale snare (since it re apply every tick)-> as bw one is a right thing to do
Spoiler:
also best target for a change like that would be a magus.. not zealot... since they are the classes which share these stuff (magus ap on channeling should get replaced with sanre)
tough runy have a snare so the idea maybe is not so off the edge but still a snare that re apply every tick feel overkilling
To be fair 2 snare procs is enough first and 4th assuming there is 6 ticks in total although for my book a single 3 second proc at the start would be sufficient to use the skill properly or kite.
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Jaycub
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Re: [Zealot] Path of Witchcraft Abilities

Post#6 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:44 pm

Toldavf wrote:I don't mind the snare as it would be very small like withering heats and i don't really see a 3 second snare off the first tick breaking dps zealot into the meta. All in all that would be a good change which will help the class a bit to actually kite and get the full channel off.

For your second suggestion i object strongly morale damage is not something that you should hand out to core abilities, it's really potent stuff and should be kept exclusively for morale abilities. As a faction I think destro already have sufficient retaliatory damage

I think would be better to use client control to rework the ability fully name and all.
It's not so much morale damage, as it is needing to bypass mechanics like guard. Otherwise it would have to be overturned against nongaurded players, or irrelevant against guarded players (useless).

"barbed armor" mechanics need to pose a significant threat to those attacking or it loses the point as an anti-burst tool.

But yes, anything will do as long as storm of ravens is given some kind of utility, and mirror is reworked either by something cooked in-house by the dev team or based off a suggestion here not necessarily the one in the OP either. The goal of course being to open up possibilities outside the current mandatory cookie cutter spec.
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peterthepan3
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Re: [Zealot] Path of Witchcraft Abilities

Post#7 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:59 pm

I like the idea of giving Storm of Ravens a snare, or even giving it a more unique debuff component, e.g. makes target take 15% more damage during duration, target is prevented from attacking/healing/benefiting from guard during duration.
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Jaycub
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Re: [Zealot] Path of Witchcraft Abilities

Post#8 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:40 am

peterthepan3 wrote:I like the idea of giving Storm of Ravens a snare, or even giving it a more unique debuff component, e.g. makes target take 15% more damage during duration, target is prevented from attacking/healing/benefiting from guard during duration.
I wonder how the community would handle the stronger effects like you mention.

Channels have counterplay in that any tank can taunt them out of it, and any hard cc as well. But this game happens to atm be completely devoid of high impact skills with counterplay, unless you consider Morales but those have very little counterplay.

Of course what I propose for mirror would fall into that category.
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wwright72
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Re: [Zealot] Path of Witchcraft Abilities

Post#9 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:23 am

Jaycub wrote: Mirror of madness: For the next 7 seconds your target mirrors back 50% damage taken back to the attacker.

>2 sec cast
>60 sec cooldown
>damage received is not reduced
>damage reflected should not be mitigated by anything (morale type) or only by toughness (non scaling damage type?)
As a ddzealot I've spent alot of time playing with the witchcraft tree and Mirror isn't as bad as you think it is. Its a very useful tool for assassinating healers, and in small scale that can win you fights. Although, I do agree with adding a snare somewhere in the ddzealot kit because we desperately need one.

But if you were to re-work mirror I'd suggest taking jay's proposal and giving it a 45 sec cd with no cast-time. Its a reactionary cd at that point, and idk about you but Ive never seen defensive cd with a cast-time.
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Penril
Posts: 4366

Re: [Zealot] Path of Witchcraft Abilities

Post#10 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:37 pm

Mirror of Madnes proposal won't happen. I suggest you guys focus on SoR, and maybe Ritual of Superiority (I believe it sucks, am I wrong?).

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