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Heaven's Blade

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#151 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:53 pm

Just to clarify : double spirit debuff stacking for the sm/dps am/dps wp isn't the issue, right? It's the rvr corp/ele debuff BW synergy? So double stack for spirit damage will be left alone? I can understand why it would cause problems for BW.
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CytheX
Posts: 105

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#152 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:05 pm

Remember the good old time of live when SM comunity was upset cuz the Ib/kobs where mandatory and sm had nothing unless ww? Destroyn the dps for SM will get back to those times.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#153 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:07 pm

Torquemadra wrote:
peterthepan3 wrote:Just to clarify : double spirit debuff stacking for the sm/dps am/dps wp isn't the issue, right? It's the rvr corp/ele debuff BW synergy? So double stack for spirit damage will be left alone? I can understand why it would cause problems for BW.
You dont see a problem with a class being able to debuff a synergistic (not to mention their own main type) damage type to absolute zero? With 100% uptime?

For that you need to be specd all the way up in Hoeth, which is a personal significant dps loss. Context is important. Maybe that's what spirit resist tactics are for/spirit pots?

Swordmaster literally only brings damage to a group.

This is why blackguard magical damage tactic, and black orc 80% magical damage ability, should also work against the swordmaster. It would prove to be yet another amazing way to counter a swordmaster when coupled with some decent resists.
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dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#154 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:12 pm

Torquemadra wrote:
peterthepan3 wrote:Just to clarify : double spirit debuff stacking for the sm/dps am/dps wp isn't the issue, right? It's the rvr corp/ele debuff BW synergy? So double stack for spirit damage will be left alone? I can understand why it would cause problems for BW.
You dont see a problem with a class being able to debuff a synergistic (not to mention their own main type) damage type to absolute zero? With 100% uptime?
Personally, no. Can't Mara debuff armor and wounds on a target pretty easily, while still dealing high damage?
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CytheX
Posts: 105

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#155 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:17 pm

Am i wrong or already armor debuff stack with demolishing strike? So both spirit debuff does, i don see the problem. If sm hurt so much, istead of stack armor ,stack spirit resist , like u said when u build a character u choose u strenght and ur weakness in base of ur build.

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GodlessCrom
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Posts: 1297

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#156 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:24 pm

Does Cutting Claw/Horrific Wound stack with the armor debuff from Demonic Spittle tactic?
Remember the good old time of live when SM comunity was upset cuz the Ib/kobs where mandatory and sm had nothing unless ww? Destroyn the dps for SM will get back to those times.
IB meta is back bebe 8-)
Last edited by GodlessCrom on Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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DokB
Posts: 538

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#157 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:28 pm

CytheX wrote:Am i wrong or already armor debuff stack with demolishing strike? So both spirit debuff does, i don see the problem. If sm hurt so much, istead of stack armor ,stack spirit resist , like u said when u build a character u choose u strenght and ur weakness in base of ur build.
Demo Strike/Claw are morales which follow the regular stacking rules. Heaven's Blade is a core abilitiy and stacks with other skills while not following the conventional stacking rules that most abilities follow.

That being said: I liked Peter’s suggestion early in the thread: Keep the spirit debuff stacking but not the other damage types like corp/elemental. This way it maintains viability with other order classes, doesn’t nerf SM DPS and reduces their effectiveness in zerg vs zerg play.

It’s good to start small with changes like this, I mean we can always change it again if it still isn’t enough?
Last edited by DokB on Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1896

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#158 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:28 pm

Guys its not about "evil spirit dmg". Its about SM being basically the best Resis debuffer in game because that class alone has a core ability to resis debuff that stacks with ANY OTHER RESIS DEBUFF IN GAME.
Whether you want 1v1 or 3v3 or 6v6 or 24v24 or 24vxx, when it comes to unleashing greatest potential magical dmg (hint, Fireclowns), you want enemy resis to drop as close to zero as possible (achieved by Knights just walking around being awesome) and SMs smashing AoE into whatever is nearby proccing as many HBs as possible so that the victims basically end up retaining close to 0% magical resistance when facing a melttrain of 4-6 BWs each pumping 3-5k AoE dmg out per second.
Destro has no similar way of achieving a debuff that is aoe spammable and lowers resis on multitude of enemies to zero with relative ease.

SM+Kotb resis debuff stack is currently severely underused, as the few remaining Warbands somehow lack enough SM+Kotb combos, but their potential damage output is insane when it comes AoE pressure from BW who gets to let the fires truly burn.

So another idea:
What if HB granted minor AP regen penalty and minor movespeed penalty? Something like -25% AP regen and maybe -10% to 20% movement speed? Dunno what values would be best.
Last edited by Aurandilaz on Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#159 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:30 pm

Torquemadra wrote:How about -100% armour or -100% stacking debuffs for destro then if they seem so fine and dandy and the suggestion of having to slot a tactic as a counter is farcical especially when it comes with a -15% heal debuff and EVERY SM can just change into it at a whim
Why not change the heal debuff component then and making it worth taking? Why not make the BOs ability actually work against sm, too? You would then have two tanks who can essentially hardcounter a SM (Not to mention nidf + taunt working wonders against wods).

Never heard complaints of double stacking spirit debuff in small-scale at all. It enables you to do huge damage, so what? Good BO and BG are almost the same, while bringing plethora of more goodies for smallscale encounters. Guilds like Exodus and 12 inches know how to deal with swordmaster, counterplay does exist even if the majority are unable to utilise it.

Bear in mind that the few swordmasters on the server who do actually deal lethal damage are all dominator geared, i.e. bis. Dominator, as you know, gives a taunt proc. THIS has a much larger effect on damage than double debuff does for a swordmaster, fyi, so maybe the 'problem' you purport to exist can be traced there.

If you're gonna nerf it, make it Single target only and spirit debuff only. Simple. Also maybe finetune dominator sets, and give wods a 5/10 second cooldown.

Aura: the issue you talk about (stacking with corp debuff from kotbs making bw godmode) is a separate issue from that torque is purporting to exist (that spirit debuff stacking is somehow op in smallscale). It is important we differentiate between the two,.

Begs the question: what has prompted this change?
Last edited by peterthepan3 on Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3807

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#160 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:33 pm

Dom is only temp BiS

Thats going to change eventually you know when warlord and other sets come out and prices get slashed

Additionally you also have access to taunt from T4 epic weapon
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