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Heaven's Blade

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Penril
Posts: 4441

Heaven's Blade

Post#1 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:21 pm

Issue: Heaven's Blade debuff stacks with other debuffs (Wrath of Hoeth, KotBS aura, etc). Most people seem to focus on the double spirit debuff, but ignore the implications this has with, say, double Ele/Corp (BWs, Engi, etc.).

Why it is an issue: While Destro can counter this, they need to spec a tactic (the +spirit/corp/ele resist one) and then stack a resist buff on them. This only mitigates the double debuff on ONE resist though; a Black Orc, for example, can't counter a double corp debuff. A zealot can't counter a double spirit debuff. And so on. In the meantime, all Order needs is just one SM with several points in Hoeth to run his core stance and stack his debuff with a KotBS.

Proposal: The most obvious one would be making HB not stack anymore. However there are a few issues with that atm, so the next best thing is simply changing HB into something else. Now this is the fun part: you guys make the proposal. Give me a few ideas for HB.

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Brutinho
Posts: 164

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#2 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:28 pm

In case the proposal is how to balance HB through other means here are my 2 cents: Would it be possible to modify the 'resist tactic' to say all resistances instead of just one but lower the amount of reaistances given ?

If proposed changes must be only to HB then ignore my post c:
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Theseus
Posts: 526

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#3 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:29 pm

Hm, making it not stacking, would make the abillity lackluster in my oppinion. I personally would either make it so, that it only stacks with certain abillities, like WoH. Or so to say with your own abilities. Or, which may be easier that it only debuffs spirit damage.
Andyrion Ulthenair
Arphyrion Soulblade

Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#4 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:32 pm

The issue would persist: you would need all destro running a tactic in order to counter one SM using a core stance.

I will give you an example of what I want in this thread: "how about changing Heaven's Blade so when it procs it reduces chance to defend attacks by 5%?" (this is JUST A COMPLETELY RANDOM EXAMPLE, don't even try to debunk it).

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Theseus
Posts: 526

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#5 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:39 pm

Hm, I see, well there would be a lot of debuffs to choose from. The problem is, you would have to use something, that would not have to stack with another. So if you would use a critdebuff or buff and it would stick with the kotbs buff or the debuff tactics for crit, you would have the same problem either.

So we should perhaps first look into which buffs or debuffs arent covered yet.
If we know this, it may be easier.
Andyrion Ulthenair
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BrockRiefenstahl
Posts: 409

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#6 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:39 pm

Give it proper damage than. Or make the debuff way higher to not be as strong as stacking debuffs but 20% less effective.
Would be still a reason to skill it but not being in the bullzeye of the whiners anymore.

When does this end? I am personally against streamlining but its not my game so 8-)

Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#7 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:41 pm

It doesn't matter if your suggestion would stack with something else. The issue is RESIST stacking.

Imagine if Destro could AoE armor debuff for 3k. That's pretty much what double resist debuff does.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#8 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:41 pm

In what environment is this stacking an issue? I can only see it being an issue with BWs: for engineers and SMs, there is nothing overperforming about the ability to stack. In any other environment, it really isn't an issue.

From a SM PoV, I am fully against removing HB's ability to stack with WoH as this would drastically affect the SM's niche of DPS tank. I don't see an issue whatsoever with SM WoH + EB stacking; good groups know how to counter a SM, the counterplay options are there.

I can't speak on behalf of BWs, but I don't think it would be bad if it didn't stack with corp debuff - though this would, yet again, inadvertently nerf the engineer grenade spec.
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Theseus
Posts: 526

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#9 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:44 pm

I think if it stacks with something else, it would be the same in green, but as you wish.

How about it givs you a stacking resist buff instead of a debuff for enemies.
Or a buff on critdamage for attacks with spiritdamage
or a debuff on critdamage.
Andyrion Ulthenair
Arphyrion Soulblade

Coma
Posts: 167

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#10 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:45 pm

well best thing, rather than simply making Heaven blade not stacking would be to invert the stachable option between heaven blade and wrath of hoet... making WoH stackable (with any form of resist debuff) and HB nonstackable... that way SM would still have doubel spirit debuff while you will avoid double corp/ele debuff.... with spirit damage being much less avaible to order it will not impact destro too much (yes Dps SM will still be the best dps tank and SM+AM will still be considerable good... but not like the potential SM+Eng or SM+Kotbs+Eng/BW


if this is stil not possible.... what about chaning HB to be spirit debuff only? and maybe turning WoH into a 3 resist debuff? the result will be the same, double spirit debuff but only single debuff on the other 2 resist... debuff value would need to be revised obviously (HB increased and WoH reduced)

a third option would be to turn it into a damage increase rather than a resist debuff, like all affected target suffer x% more damage for y second, you could work on the number in order to get it to be less effective than a double resist debuff wind it end up allpling to EVERY form of damage

a forth option could be a damage trigger debuff (like shades of death fro Sorc) but that only trigger when the affected target is hit by spirit damage


that's it for now.. if something else pop into my mind I'll share ^^

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