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Heaven's Blade

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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#131 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:25 pm

Zintair wrote:
How do you figure? And it's literally what penril said he liked.
Me liking something is kinda irrelevant. I don't make the decisions (i have said this, what, 3801 times now? :P )

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Collateral
Posts: 1494

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#132 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:30 pm

Zintair wrote:
Collateral wrote:
Zintair wrote:Heavens Blade - increases all damage against affected targets by X% maybe 10? So as to keep in the spirit of what the buff was doing but not make it double resist debuff just a flat damage increased from all sources.

Imo something like this only way to keep the SM in a semi decent state with the current mastery options and still be invited to a group.
Do you understand the effect this would have in rvr? This would be even stronger than the current situation of triple stacking :D
How do you figure? And it's literally what penril said he liked. I just went back and read Volgs post and the signal flare one is 10% added dmg to effected targets

Keep in mind 10 was just a number I threw out there.
Ok maybe I exaggerated a bit. I just thought that flat aoe damage increases and decreases were a no go from devs.

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Zintair
Posts: 90

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#133 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:31 pm

Tesq wrote:
Spoiler:
Zintair wrote:First it's pretty clear that any type of resist stacking as has been said is dead. This crushes me as I just made my SM for this gimmick but what can you do.

So I bring to the table 2 points I wish to convey regarding how SM and HB need to move forward.

1) without the resist stacking the SM is now garbage tier imo. They bring little to nothing new to the table you can't get from a better class especially tank. Group utility wise edit

Spec
Protection of hoeth / WW / crashing wave
Core
Blurring shock / disorient / niche AoE kb

Very very very very little group utility. I truly propose a major class rework before this nerf happens. The class brings next to nothing else to the table besides it's DPS capabilities which are now gone.

Please consider a full class rework or at least a hoeth / vaul rework.

2) if only heavens blade had to change

Heavens Blade - increases all damage against affected targets by X% maybe 10? So as to keep in the spirit of what the buff was doing but not make it double resist debuff just a flat damage increased from all sources.

Imo something like this only way to keep the SM in a semi decent state with the current mastery options and still be invited to a group.

because:

aoe punt
""""50% """cast time increase
crit proc
5 sec group-wide CD decrease
25% ST crit debuff
4 Sec group CC immunity
all stats stat steals

most of it in 1 build + best tank panic button in game + best dmg tank in game is no group support right?
I didn't say NO group support I said very little. And you will have **** damage if you take all of those.

It's either hoeth / vaul or khaine / vaul I guess you could do khaine / hoeth but you start losing group utility whenever you touch the khaine tree.

And without the double debuff the damage now plummets from DPS spec so we lose that edge and now have 1 spec the Boring group utility spec which there isn't that much of.

And please the AoE KB is great under rare circumstances otherwise it's an immunity buff for destro.
Phoenix Throne - Bad Moon Officer - Black Guard / Chosen

ROR - Zinn SM 34/34 // Zindaddy RP
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Zintair
Posts: 90

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#134 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:33 pm

Penril wrote:
Zintair wrote:
How do you figure? And it's literally what penril said he liked.
Me liking something is kinda irrelevant. I don't make the decisions (i have said this, what, 3801 times now? :P )
That's fine :) I was just using you as a potentially more reasonable person then myself to consider a suggestion valid or not
Phoenix Throne - Bad Moon Officer - Black Guard / Chosen

ROR - Zinn SM 34/34 // Zindaddy RP
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Axerker
Posts: 203

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#135 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:40 pm

Zintair wrote:
And you will have **** damage if you take all of those.
Tanks shouldn't have more than minimal damage output anyways. Just nuisance damage. Like 200-500 per GCD.

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GodlessCrom
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Posts: 1297

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#136 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:42 pm

Axerker wrote:
Zintair wrote:
And you will have **** damage if you take all of those.
Tanks shouldn't have more than minimal damage output anyways. Just nuisance damage. Like 200-500 per GCD.
No one would ever die if tanks couldnt provide decent assist damage in small scale. As it stands, only 1-3 dbs might happen per side in 6v6 as it is, unless one side is just trash compared to others.

And literally every tank has a dps assist tree, so its intended design
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

Axerker
Posts: 203

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#137 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:47 pm

GodlessCrom wrote:
Axerker wrote:
Zintair wrote:
And you will have **** damage if you take all of those.
Tanks shouldn't have more than minimal damage output anyways. Just nuisance damage. Like 200-500 per GCD.
No one would ever die if tanks couldnt provide decent assist damage in small scale. As it stands, only 1-3 dbs might happen per side in 6v6 as it is, unless one side is just trash compared to others.
I agree, but this is why 6v6 gear is built around strength (talking about only vendors, not what people actually wear), while RvR gear is built defensively. A tank going full tank in small scale is less useful than a full tank in RvR, because you NEED the damage output. At least on one of the tanks (1 for pure tanking and 1 more damage-built). Doing 2+2+2 (Pure Tank + Pure DPS + Pure Healer) puts all of the killing reliance on only your 2 DPS. So one of the tanks should sacrifice tanking to be an off-tank. I'm discussing pure tanks, who go 0 STR and totally defensive for Guard botting. Those ones do no damage, but they make up for it by keeping the DPS they're guarding alive for much longer.

Edit: 200-500 per GCD is small compared to mDPS, but its supposed to be. A tank should never, ever, ever, ever be even remotely comparable to mDPS in damage output. At best 50-65% damage output. The 200-500 is enough to cancel out a HoT while your DPS burns them down. But they're more for CCing/locking than damage, so your DPS class doesn't need to waste a GCD on a CC.

This is getting off-topic. So to keep it on-topic, SM excels at being the damaging off-tank, and blows at being the primary pure tank. But that's pretty much his role. That role is needed in WBs, but only minorly. You can build them as pure tank and be about 90% as effective as pure tank IB/KotBS. Still good enough though.
Last edited by Axerker on Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Zintair
Posts: 90

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#138 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:48 pm

Axerker wrote:
Zintair wrote:
And you will have **** damage if you take all of those.
Tanks shouldn't have more than minimal damage output anyways. Just nuisance damage. Like 200-500 per GCD.
What godlesscrom said but this hurts SM as a class design as well cause the group utility is lack luster to what knight and IB provide it was slotted for the extra damage it can dish so that needs to be solved in order to save the class or possibly do a rework.

I've read the SM tips hints thread front to back 3x and there was no question we got groups because of our DPS. WW build in warband but even still that takes a huge hit too because of this overall change which is fine just saying SM needs something more than a HB rework to keep it competitive as well.
Phoenix Throne - Bad Moon Officer - Black Guard / Chosen

ROR - Zinn SM 34/34 // Zindaddy RP
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Eathisword
Posts: 808

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#139 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:01 pm

Krima wrote:The amount of crazy ideas,amazes me... It sounds like HB its a 13 point mastery skill or a tactic...
er wait...
Its a core ability :lol:
I am just throwing ideas out there. Also, a core ability doesn't mean it's should be bad. On a lot of classes, core ability are very effing strong.

Otherwise, I'd propose that feinted positioning becomes 2s uptime with 5 min CD and that AE gets no more stagger effect... Ya know... cause its core !

On a related ideas train of thoughts, we could find a useless SM tactic, that could be reworked to make WoH spirit debuff +50-100% but single target instead of AoE. This way WB could still have WoH AoE (not stacking and less OP), and small scale SM could provide max debuff (not losing their niche role) but having allocate a tactic to do it.
Last edited by Eathisword on Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GodlessCrom
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Posts: 1297

Re: Heaven's Blade

Post#140 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:04 pm

Volgo is getting saucy in his old age.

Just as dwarves do :D
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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